+240 MP Patch

I do know that having a more equal starting manpower means there's less disparity between conscripts and AGrens, combined with the faster building on Soviet B1 and B2, means you get out the tools to offset the massive change on the early game that AGrens still represent.

I think it's a positive change overall. Unless you had a crazy commander, CoH2's builds were getting stale and railroaded.

It's only made negative by the release of improperly tested commanders that are affected by these change a bit more. However, I do think that the extra MP, while usable by the problem commanders, can be utilized by the basic commanders just as much to offset that.

But there's still other big issues that need addressing.

Barring 0CP Commanders, the MP chage does very little for Ost meta.

You still need just as many Grens to protect each Support team purchase you make.
As everyone likes to point out ad nauseum, they need Gren protection to function.

So instead of going 3Grens + Support, you now go 4 Grens + Support, or 5xGren.
Maybe better players can swing it for 3 Grens and 2x Support but I find that quite risky and you cripple map control.

Doesnt help you tier any faster for more diversity, since those hinge on Fuel income, which is unchanged.

Also Sov now not only has the extreme early onfield CE advantage while Pio builds T1, but retains it when Sov builds reduced time T1 or T2, whereas before Ost took that time back with onfield time during BP1. So now Sov is the one with more onfield time.

TLDR:Just means more Grens or a more sustainable T1 support for Ost. Thats all well and fine, but for Sov it means they now have the onfield time advantage, can leverage the MP for an earlier Tech (especially if you hold off on Con HQ upgrades), AS WELL as spamming more Cons for their own Support. I foresee M3s becoming very big in this patch, with the unfortunate side-effect that they force Ost to build even more Grens because you absoluteky MUST have tons of Grens, everywhere, with Faust, to hold them off, which is a detractant from leveraging the extra MP into Support (which are sitting ducks for M3s).

This is a huge Sov buff.

And please, stop with the claims that a Sniper is a Maxim counter. Range and LoS are only 10 difference iirc, as well as Snipers AI tendency to move incloser than it needs to, make it function only under perfect circumstances, and even then the 6man Maxim can soak 1-2 shots and simply reposition into building or LoS with negligable MP cost.

Sov Sniper vs MG42 however, is an other matter entirely. Same range/los issues, but compunded for Sov advantage due to being only 4man and hence a bigger MP drain per model lost, quadratic loss of survival, and vulnerability during longer desetup.

Ost Sniper puts a hurt on Guard and Shocks, not on Support teams. Same is not true of Sov Sniper, which Sov can infact now quite happily and readily field earlier and more sustainably. Thereby, again, ultimately validating more Gren spam. Atleast with RNade you have a remote chance of nuking a non-microed Sniper, whereas your Support teams would be jist sitting ducks.

Flamer change also favored Sov. A Sov flamer hits a 4man Ost unit as if it was 4 Cons, whereas Ost Flamer hits Sov units as if they are 6 Cons. I think the flamers should be made asymmetric with Sov staying as it is, but Ost changed to a wider template with less DPS.

Altogether, this patch has been HUGE for Sov, with many indirect consequences such as reversing the onfield advantage due to build times, making Sov Garrisons even more effective vs RNade as compared to Molotovs, mqking Sov teching faster AND more diverse and less onfield time detrimental, improving Sov flamer more than Ost, whereas for Ost, all it means is 1-2 more Grens or +1 Support team.

I look forward to SNF this week very much to see how the pros handle this with vanilla commanders.
Idgaf about Commanders tbh, its a lost issue.. Id rather focus on mainline balance.
Makes me doubly angry that as many have pointed out, this change seems to be almost deliberately leveraged for 0CP commanders which can make enormous use of the earlier MP, and which ofc are DLC. See the hidden hook?

I dont mean to be Ost biased in all of this though reading back on it it does seem like QQ.
I just seriously have concerns about what this does for vanilla earlygame balance.
I see very little advantage from this for Ost, whereas plenty for Sov.
Many may perceive that Sov was so severly underperforming, that these changes "equalise" that, but I dont share that perspective.
Others get sidetracked into how these can be problemaric with 0CP Commanders, but on that point too, as I said, its a forgone issue. To my mind, the MP/buildtime change is a deliberate change to sell more DLC 0CP Commanders. I dont think that is a coincidence, that 0CP Commanders benefit feom this the most, and that magically the most prominent CP0 Commanders just happen to be DLC.

Beer and popcorn for sure for SNF. Twill be the judging and ultimate testing ground for what these MP/buildtimes do to the actual baseline game.

i havent decided yet if i like the 500mp change , i d say it makes the game more actionpacked but atthe same time practically removes the early game phase that existed untill now , however mg/maxim/douchegun spam is really frustrting to play in some maps and i imagine it only quickens th eridiculously fast t70s

This is noobtastic.

Soviets didn't need a 500mp start. Since I've discovered I can make 4 cons before upgrading Molotovs instead of putting down support or rifle command, I haven't lost a game. I'm on an 11 streak and just beat a top 50 player. And of course I DO NOT use Pussy Riot (sov industry.) I only put down a building early if they went assgrens because cons pre-SMG won't cut it.

All it does is make flanking early game even easier.

This is noobtastic.

Soviets didn't need a 500mp start. Since I've discovered I can make 4 cons before upgrading Molotovs instead of putting down support or rifle command, I haven't lost a game. I'm on an 11 streak and just beat a top 50 player. And of course I DO NOT use Pussy Riot (sov industry.) I only put down a building early if they went assgrens because cons pre-SMG won't cut it.

All it does is make flanking early game even easier.

The problem was that every soviet player started with 4x conscripts before getting a building. Now you can actually get something like a maxim or penal squad out before the Osteer has a flamer halftrack of scoutcars out.

You don't need those unless facing assgrens or fast T2 pgrens.

The only Ostheer answer is more LMG grens (bad vs Sov Industry, or even normal T70) or double MGs, which force a Sov building. I think double MGs is the better answer but your micro has to be top-of-the-charts to then go for a successful cut-off.

I see no reason for this change and I don't like it. Vehicles already come too fast. The beautiful infantry dance of VCOH early game is all but non-existant already, this will make it worse.

I see no reason for this change and I don't like it. Vehicles already come too fast. The beautiful infantry dance of VCOH early game is all but non-existant already, this will make it worse.

I've played approx. 45 games since the 240 MP Patch and I disagree. The fact vehicules come too fast is because of the industry doc. For me more MP means more infantry, and since the patch my games seems like more at COH1 than before because you can extend ur T1 units and I rly like it!!

I see no reason for this change and I don't like it. Vehicles already come too fast. The beautiful infantry dance of VCOH early game is all but non-existant already, this will make it worse.

Vehicle timings are related to fuel income. You can't just get tanks faster because you start with more mp. More mp allows for more early game infantry play, not less.

+240mp feels stupid, should be removed

+240 has given asome kind ballance in team games. It is a right step

Its 500MP total for both at start.

Not +240.

it's a total of 500 manpower. they only added 200 something to each side.

@Ciez yes, i had the exact same concerns when they decided to throw it into the patch. at the same time might help get at out faster.

I like the +240mp patch, it gives a chance to try penals or new starts different to x4 conscripts.

Otherwise, I would raise the fuel needed to tech. That way tanks would appear later than they do right now, giving more importance to infantry game.

what if they give al tanks both factions and call ins a increase cost of 30% feul.. that way you wont get the tank spam. they wil come late rin the game. tiger and kv2 tanks wile be rare sight maby the p5 wil be less of a pick unles they make the p5 have a special role the p4 cant do. and ofcorse keep the light vhicle as they are now so you wil see more of those around.. and tweek the cost of the t70 a bit so you cant spam those as well

it's a total of 500 manpower. they only added 200 something to each side.

Didnt I just say that?

I agree with ami, obviously having more 240 MP doesn't affect the fuel directly but you can cap faster and have the 4th unit out sooner which means your teching starts early too.

Barring 0CP Commanders, the MP chage does very little for Ost meta.

You still need just as many Grens to protect each Support team purchase you make.
As everyone likes to point out ad nauseum, they need Gren protection to function.

So instead of going 3Grens + Support, you now go 4 Grens + Support, or 5xGren.
Maybe better players can swing it for 3 Grens and 2x Support but I find that quite risky and you cripple map control.

Doesnt help you tier any faster for more diversity, since those hinge on Fuel income, which is unchanged.

Also Sov now not only has the extreme early onfield CE advantage while Pio builds T1, but retains it when Sov builds reduced time T1 or T2, whereas before Ost took that time back with onfield time during BP1. So now Sov is the one with more onfield time.

TLDR:Just means more Grens or a more sustainable T1 support for Ost. Thats all well and fine, but for Sov it means they now have the onfield time advantage, can leverage the MP for an earlier Tech (especially if you hold off on Con HQ upgrades), AS WELL as spamming more Cons for their own Support. I foresee M3s becoming very big in this patch, with the unfortunate side-effect that they force Ost to build even more Grens because you absoluteky MUST have tons of Grens, everywhere, with Faust, to hold them off, which is a detractant from leveraging the extra MP into Support (which are sitting ducks for M3s).

This is a huge Sov buff.

And please, stop with the claims that a Sniper is a Maxim counter. Range and LoS are only 10 difference iirc, as well as Snipers AI tendency to move incloser than it needs to, make it function only under perfect circumstances, and even then the 6man Maxim can soak 1-2 shots and simply reposition into building or LoS with negligable MP cost.

Sov Sniper vs MG42 however, is an other matter entirely. Same range/los issues, but compunded for Sov advantage due to being only 4man and hence a bigger MP drain per model lost, quadratic loss of survival, and vulnerability during longer desetup.

Ost Sniper puts a hurt on Guard and Shocks, not on Support teams. Same is not true of Sov Sniper, which Sov can infact now quite happily and readily field earlier and more sustainably. Thereby, again, ultimately validating more Gren spam. Atleast with RNade you have a remote chance of nuking a non-microed Sniper, whereas your Support teams would be jist sitting ducks.

Flamer change also favored Sov. A Sov flamer hits a 4man Ost unit as if it was 4 Cons, whereas Ost Flamer hits Sov units as if they are 6 Cons. I think the flamers should be made asymmetric with Sov staying as it is, but Ost changed to a wider template with less DPS.

Altogether, this patch has been HUGE for Sov, with many indirect consequences such as reversing the onfield advantage due to build times, making Sov Garrisons even more effective vs RNade as compared to Molotovs, mqking Sov teching faster AND more diverse and less onfield time detrimental, improving Sov flamer more than Ost, whereas for Ost, all it means is 1-2 more Grens or +1 Support team.

I look forward to SNF this week very much to see how the pros handle this with vanilla commanders.
Idgaf about Commanders tbh, its a lost issue.. Id rather focus on mainline balance.
Makes me doubly angry that as many have pointed out, this change seems to be almost deliberately leveraged for 0CP commanders which can make enormous use of the earlier MP, and which ofc are DLC. See the hidden hook?

I dont mean to be Ost biased in all of this though reading back on it it does seem like QQ.
I just seriously have concerns about what this does for vanilla earlygame balance.
I see very little advantage from this for Ost, whereas plenty for Sov.
Many may perceive that Sov was so severly underperforming, that these changes "equalise" that, but I dont share that perspective.
Others get sidetracked into how these can be problemaric with 0CP Commanders, but on that point too, as I said, its a forgone issue. To my mind, the MP/buildtime change is a deliberate change to sell more DLC 0CP Commanders. I dont think that is a coincidence, that 0CP Commanders benefit feom this the most, and that magically the most prominent CP0 Commanders just happen to be DLC.

Beer and popcorn for sure for SNF. Twill be the judging and ultimate testing ground for what these MP/buildtimes do to the actual baseline game.

+1 I completely agree with everything in this post. gonna be a really rough patch for Germans. Sad because before these changes it looked like the game was going to be more balanced than ever with the vet changes. then this stuff had to come in and throw everything out of whack. really sucks that the mg42 is so useless. it being strong would really help with the increased Soviet presence on the field

I dislike it. There are other, better ways to add some diversification to soviet early game and to extend the early game as a whole.

Wow just wow...for the first time,vetted 3 Penals...they actually work
Early game for Soviets is a little harder,but man,totally worth it

Wow just wow...for the first time,vetted 3 Penals...they actually work
Early game for Soviets is a little harder,but man,totally worth it

well early mid and late game is kinda hard for sov