T-34 Ram

I feel like there are two discussions going on here:

• Some people saying it needs to be removed/nerfed
  
• Some people saying is overpowered
  

Lol... that sounds like its doing what its should be to me.

I will be the first to admit that getting rammed by someone who knows what they are doing sucks, but I absolutely don't think it should be changed. "Ram" is absolutely fitting for all Soviet commanders (making it doctrinal would be silly). Changing the T-34 to behave more like Shermans (with Radio Net) is boring. Removing "Ram" will only make dealing with German armor even more difficult for allies. It's a high risk, high reward solution which the Soviets are well known for. And there are very easy ways to counter players that are "RAM happy" (ie. don't lump all your assets into a single expensive unit like a dummy!). Absolutely does NOT need change.

And for those who think Ram is actually bad... T-34 ram + Penals + Satchel Charges = Dead Heavy Tank. Just try it. If your T-34 is lucky, they might even survive.

People will always find things to complain about and deem overpowered/underpowered. When all logical and sensical options are spent the "It's cheese 2 click easy no skill combo" argument will appear, at which point you know you've won the argument. This is the 2nd thread about RAM ability. Even though at around 100 rank in 3v3 I seldom see it used....and plenty of standard custom games were RAM-less, it's still deemed like it's this one combo that wipes everything (it doesn't, even a well executed won't kill a heavy tank 100%). And to top all that, it's doctrinal. While I agree that commanders that have heavy tanks should not have offmap bomb (stuka or arty), anything about RAM ability being OP/UP is nonsensical to say the least.

People will always find things to complain about and deem overpowered/underpowered. When all logical and sensical options are spent the "It's cheese 2 click easy no skill combo" argument will appear, at which point you know you've won the argument. This is the 2nd thread about RAM ability. Even though at around 100 rank in 3v3 I seldom see it used....and plenty of standard custom games were RAM-less, it's still deemed like it's this one combo that wipes everything (it doesn't, even a well executed won't kill a heavy tank 100%). And to top all that, it's doctrinal. While I agree that commanders that have heavy tanks should not have offmap bomb (stuka or arty), anything about RAM ability being OP/UP is nonsensical to say the least.

Yes 2-click no-skill combo have it's life. Do you remember old AT artillery from NKVD? Or 10 minutes KT? Old ptabs? Old ComPanther that buffed everything? It have the same root - i already told, if RAM will have restriciton to HP pool, it will be last resort tool. But without it, it's just become selguided snare to call off-map. You think you really could survive, if 2 t-34 one after another ramming you heavy with offmap? 600\180 always best trade to any heavy.
We have ability that have very, very narrow usage in regular commanders and have some cheese in docs with specific off-maps. It's just bad designed ability. Not even saying about that this ability completely broke intention to save your unit.

I see we’re still pretending ram is fine.

Whaddya mean? It's a 300 mp 90 fuel investment for a five second stun and the possibility of engine critical

I see we’re still pretending ram is fine.

Yes how dare a majority of the forum disagree with your unexplained opinion

Ram is fine. Il2 rockets are still too strong and need more changes, Il2 bomb shouldn't be on commanders with ISU or Mark Target. Problem solved

(it doesn't, even a well executed won't kill a heavy tank 100%)

Yeah, no.

Instant kill.

This shit isn't even that hard to pull off.

I see we’re still pretending ram is fine.

if you screen for your armour itll never touch you. is that too much to ask?

well, thought my sarcasm was self evident but apparently not. There are several axis vehicles which lack the ability to dodge rams while others like Shock Motor even have abilities that allow for you to locate vehicles across the map with ease to tell whether you're screening these aforementioned cumbersome vehicles. Would happily take a Blitz equivalent at vet 1

Yes how dare a majority of the forum disagree with your unexplained opinion

Ram is fine. Il2 rockets are still too strong and need more changes, Il2 bomb shouldn't be on commanders with ISU or Mark Target. Problem solved

I think this is a good point. To be honest, I mostly use Ram + Satchel Charges which feels more "fair" because I still have to get close to do the damage and my squads could still get wiped in the process. It's just a variation of many other ATG-based attacks which can all be countered with proper support and microing. But I can see how Ram + Rocket/Bomb Strike would be much harder to counter. Yeah, I don't think Ram is really the main problem; it's the uncounterable airstrikes.

That being said, as powerful as this combo is, I would think it would be used more often. But honestly, I don't see a lot of people out there exploiting this ability to the fullest. Most people tend to be shy about sacrificing units for a big play. CoH2's best kept secret? I don't know. Just my two cents.

Here's a question that may also be an alternative solution:

Can Ram be interrupted? I honestly don't know. I've seen how far a Ram attack can be triggered from (which is well outside grenade throwing range), but can you do anything to stop it halfway or is it a canned animation? I feel like any special attack that blinds/slows a tank should interrupt a Ram too if you can catch it in time. I feel like that would be the most "fair" way to counter a Ram without substantially changing it. And I'm pretty sure all factions have access to an existing ability that could do this.

Most people don't use Ram often becuase it need specific commanders with good offmaps or need special situations when you have AT support near to your ramming T-34 or have more tanks than your enemy. Compare it with abilities of other mediums:

1. Sherman smoke grenades - you can use ability for offensive to block enemy vision or for defensive for yourself tank or other units.
2. Cromwell - the same as USF, easier to use than sherman, but also not so agile.
3. Axis Blitz - mostly used for safe escape, but can be used for offense. One of the best tool to save your tank.
4. T-34 Ram...You will use it, if you have resource advantage. If you have medium, but lack of resources lost your tank not the best option. I said it again, if cost of t-34 was 60 as in old days, than no problems. Now it coct closer to other mediums - 90 fuel. It lost initial potential. Ramming T-85 is nonsense.

Can Ram be interrupted? I honestly don't know. I've seen how far a Ram attack can be triggered from, but can you do anything to stop it halfway or is it a canned animation? I feel like any special attack that blinds/slows a tank should interrupt a Ram too if you can catch it in time.

Ram can't be used if engine is crippled. You can fausting ramming T-34 (or it can hit the mine, blocked by ATG or another armor), it will decrease speed and you will have more chances to pull back your tank outside of ability range. But in mostly situations, if Ram used not from far range, chances for counteract are minor. While far Ram can be easily dodged, you just need to move back on few meters.

Yeah, no.

Instant kill.

This shit isn't even that hard to pull off.

If you run cheatmod and test it multiple times, you'll notice what happened on the clip is a fluke, not reliable outcome.
Most of the time you need another unit to deal finishing blow.
Source: Actually fucking using the ability instead of desperately clutching to a single clip where RNG gods blessed the user.

.. I said it again, if cost of t-34 was 60 as in old days, than no problems. ...

The price of the T-34/76 was 310/100 Fuel when it was available from T3 and was lowered to 300/80 when ti was move to T4 in 2016.

The price of the T-34/76 was 310/100 Fuel when it was available from T3 and was lowered to 300/80 when ti was move to T4 in 2016.

How some outdated info relate to current situation when its cost now is 300\90? Ram fitted for old design of T-34 as disposable, easy replacable, numerous armor unit. In nowadays, act like you can easy replace it - non wise. Whole SU faction was reworked to be in pair with other factions. Cons from trash become proper mainline. T-34 was reworked to be close to other mediums and this ability just rudiment of initial design.

And don't forget about T-85, how for this tank fit Ram and cap point?

How some outdated info relate to current situation when its cost now is 300\90? Ram fitted for old design of T-34 as disposable, easy replacable, numerous armor unit. In nowadays, act like you can easy replace it - non wise. Whole SU faction was reworked to be in pair with other factions. Cons from trash become proper mainline. T-34 was reworked to be close to other mediums and this ability just rudiment of initial design.

And don't forget about T-85, how for this tank fit Ram and cap point?

How can you use the argument that Ram was fine when it costed 60 fuel when it this simply did not happen?

How can you use the argument that Ram was fine when it costed 60 fuel when it this simply did not happen?

When gun became destroyed? It was very, very fine. Especially when 1 60 fuel tank destroyed gun of Tiger or panther. And even if you played bad, 60 fuel on 50% less than 90 fuel. Math. You need 50% less time to collect their and build new tank.

When gun became destroyed? It was very, very fine. Especially when 1 60 fuel tank destroyed gun of Tiger or panther. And even if you played bad, 60 fuel on 50% less than 90 fuel. Math. You need 50% less time to collect their and build new tank.

Once more T-34/76 did not cost 60 fuel, it was 100 and then it was 80....

Once more T-34/76 did not cost 60 fuel, it was 100 and then it was 80....

Ok, agree, i checked patch notes and lowest cost was 75 fuel. But soviet tech tree also was more mobile. You can choose what build, instead current linear design. After linear system was included cost changed to 80.
But you also can't decline fact that old Ram was much more impactful than current. And have main medium tank in your top tier structure with suicidal ability is ridiculous.

And again, if Ram was Last resort tool, that could be activated in low HP, than no problems - just ability that become possible for situations in bad circumstations, where you can try to win few points. T-34 don't have any usefull ability for player, T-70 have much great impact on map control due recon mode, especially with veterancy. But T-76...cap point is useless (you can see how someone untilize it once in blue moon), Ram is just bad designed ability. Cap point and Ram should be replaced. They could be included in some doctrines (like cap points timed ability for all vehicle, like in some USF in OST docs), with special loadouts. Game MUST reward player for trying to save units.

And again T-85 don't fit such design.

Ok, agree, i checked patch notes and lowest cost was 75 fuel...

Glad we agree and can move on.

If you run cheatmod and test it multiple times, you'll notice what happened on the clip is a fluke, not reliable outcome.
Most of the time you need another unit to deal finishing blow.
Source: Actually fucking using the ability instead of desperately clutching to a single clip where RNG gods blessed the user.

Partly true. Here is why:
1)On a clip tiger was hited ones before the ram by t34 and penetrated, that can be seen.
2) There are 2 possible outcomes of the ram - stun and engine damage. With damage engine tiger is left with 85% HP always, with stun 92% HP.
Proof

3) IL-2 Rocket run has a sweetspot, where the most rockets colide with the target
Show Spoiler
In this possition most of the time Il-2 will kill tiger, or leave it at around 4-5% HP.
If ram didnt penetrated and just stuned the tiger, this sweet spot will (with best outcome) will leave it with 5%, it worst around 10%. But 5% is 52HP.

In conclusion its a bit RNG based, but its not uncontrolable RNG. Not to mention if tank did take litteraly ANY damage, at least ones, before RAM chanses are that this ability will one shot it are almost 100% if you do it right.

And as we see in the video, ramming t34 did a shot before ram and it did penetrated and even IL2 strafe wasnt perfectly placed either.

But in defence of the ability, rockets can colide with something on the map.

I simply do not see how a t34 ram + offmap kills a tank that is not positioned near the edge of the map.
Unless it gets an engine crit.

If you start moving in a timely manner when offmap is called in you are going to dodge it.
Alternativly if the ram is executed first or at the same time as the offmap is called in and you start moving it after the ram it is still dodgeable.

I have done both at the same time in cheatcommands, ramming and calling in offmap in different ways like described above.
Then taking control of the heavy after the ram and i was able to drive out every single time it did not have engine damage.

So imo the problem is
: Engine damage rng which works both ways.
Because not getting engine damage results in a thrown away t34 and munis for the offmap.
: Placing your superheavies near the edge of the map where offmap will arrive faster thus giving less time to dodge.

PS. Seeing the prevelance of superheavy TD's in teamgames i dont think this is the biggest issue in the world, its simply alot of salt coming from people who had the engine damage rng work against them.