Sander's personal balance changes

For Ost G43,maybe could still 45 for 2x,but allow upgread again after P3 upgrade？Of course 2 G43 use 1 slot
Same change for Soviet Cons ppsh too，and allow penal replace SVT by shock PPSH and have RA bonus
Again，I hope Soviet 7men cons reinforcement cost reduce buff and EXP buff like Ost T4 passive buff，after build T4 Cons and engineer and weapon squad reinforcement cost -2，maybe for penal too？

The molitov is slower to throw and has less range. This combo means that cons will take more damage using it. The later is also a massive boon because it's much easier to get a lava made off when charging an Mg frontally. This is especially problematic for both Maxims and vickers who struggle to suppress. Another boon to the extra range is the ability to deny cover from cover, something that usually won't happen with the molitov.
Another HUGE thing is that the molitov costs 80mp and 10 fuel which more than offsets the 10mu extra the lava made costs.

For no extra tech cost and increased range and faster throw perhaps the lava nade should have more of a downside than 10mu.
Matter of fact not being able to frontally burn down mgs would be a more than welcome change...

Again, soviets have access to Flamethrowers as well as their Molotovs, whereas the Incendiary grenade is literally the only flame tool that OKW have. It's understandable that its better than the molotov.

Im not overly convinced that Volks can "Frontally charge" an MG and get an incendiary off. I'd like to see an example.

Again, soviets have access to Flamethrowers as well as their Molotovs, whereas the Incendiary grenade is literally the only flame tool that OKW have. It's understandable that its better than the molotov.

Im not overly convinced that Volks can "Frontally charge" an MG and get an incendiary off. I'd like to see an example.

the only option imo doesnt justify balance defying. other options could or should be added, doesnt change the fact that when compared to the molitov the lava nade is beyond better. all the same benefits with no drawbacks (aside from only getting 2 lava nades per 3 molitovs)

frankly i think sturms should have the lava nade AND a bonus against cover/garrisons, and volks should get smoke and a normal nade- then get access to the flame nade via the specific upgrade path in firestorm (the one that removes their access to the flame nade...)

im not denying the ability to have an alternative to the flamethrower i find issue with the saturation and superiority of it.


as for the mg thing its self evident when using either of the mentioned MGs. im not currently in a position to provide the video proof however.

the only option imo doesnt justify balance defying. other options could or should be added, doesnt change the fact that when compared to the molitov the lava nade is beyond better. all the same benefits with no drawbacks (aside from only getting 2 lava nades per 3 molitovs)

frankly i think sturms should have the lava nade AND a bonus against cover/garrisons, and volks should get smoke and a normal nade- then get access to the flame nade via the specific upgrade path in firestorm (the one that removes their access to the flame nade...)

im not denying the ability to have an alternative to the flamethrower i find issue with the saturation and superiority of it.


as for the mg thing its self evident when using either of the mentioned MGs. im not currently in a position to provide the video proof however.

You're advocating that Sturms, an already overloaded unit, be the only source of anti-cover/garrison that OKW get early on though. OKW are already punished heavily for losing their Engineer squad, requiring them to deal with any sort of cover/garrisons early means they're basically fucked six ways to sunday if their Sturms die.

Im not sure what the point of an "anti cover bonus" would be on a squad that's encouraged to close to point blank, in any case.

You're also overstating the number of drawbacks that molotov even has. Once Cons hit vet 2, which really doesn't take forever, Molotovs have the singular downside of a shorter range than the Incendiary. (Assuming we aren't counting teching requirement) They're otherwise arguably better, given that there's no delay for them to burst, and conscripts have a nondoctrinal sprint ability, that gives them the mobility to get to where they need to be to toss the Molotov.

You also need to consider that Conscripts, other than a window after Volks get STGs, otherwise beat Volks in equal scenarios. Volks' saving grace in infantry combat is their Incendiary helping them push enemies out of strong positions.

Finally: Volks don't even have Incendiaries out of the gate. It requires that they build an SWS truck, giving you an early window where OKW can basically do nothing if you decide to sit behind green cover, or enter a building. You as soviet even have several options early on to provide force multipliers/deal with cover/garrisons. You can build your Mortar (or even Zis) practically immediately, and maxims (Though Maxims have deathloop issues, obviously)

You're advocating that Sturms, an already overloaded unit, be the only source of anti-cover/garrison that OKW get early on though. OKW are already punished heavily for losing their Engineer squad, requiring them to deal with any sort of cover/garrisons early means they're basically fucked six ways to sunday if their Sturms die.
sturms are not overloaded early on, but yes, i am suggesting they be the squad okw uses to dig infantry out early game. losing your sturms is bad for okw regardless and i do not recommend it in live either, but in my suggestion they will have support of smoke to both close and stay alive. smoke is something okw sorely lacks and id like more access to it as well. whats more, a normal nade wouldnt imo necessarily need to be tech locked, so volks could start with their slick nade helping out in choice encounters but sticking it out behind cover would actually be an option. forcing an enemy from cover is a great ability that shopuldnt be handed out willy nilly- cons were actually designed with it in mind and had drawbacks built in, volks were given it with none of those safe gaurds and it shows

Im not sure what the point of an "anti cover bonus" would be on a squad that's encouraged to close to point blank, in any case. anti cover isnt really what i meant, more like an anti garrison bonus

You're also overstating the number of drawbacks that molotov even has. Once Cons hit vet 2, which really doesn't take forever, requiring vet is hardly offsets the ability defficit unless you know of a sneaky way to spawn vet 2 cons off the cuff Molotovs have the singular downside of a shorter range than the Incendiary which even if that WAS the sole advantage, as i listed previously is a massive one. (Assuming we aren't counting teching requirement) why arnt we counting the tech cost? you dont get anything but molitovs for the tech and it directly inflates the cost of cons to have themThey're otherwise arguably better so if we discount the shorter range the longer throw time (or spawn them at vet 2) and the tech cost they are better?, given that there's no delay for them to burst the ability to get the nade off is moe important by a LONG shot than the half second poof before it starts burning, and conscripts have a nondoctrinal sprint ability, that gives them the mobility to get to where they need to be to toss the Molotov.so lava nades are superiour due to costing 10mu more but because cons can add 20 mu to their cost (making THEM 10mu more) the match up is fine? you could move as fast as a blitzing panther but you still need to stop to throw the molitov and if an mg fires half a burst at you in that time you are not going to get it off. if the molitov was 15 mu the comparison would be more acceptable but for a 10 mu difference the discrepancy is appaling.



You also need to consider that Conscripts, other than a window after Volks get STGs, otherwise beat Volks in equal scenarios. Volks' saving grace in infantry combat is their Incendiary helping them push enemies out of strong positions.cons and volks are at best matched before volks get their stgs, but id actually put the advantage on volks since they have about the same dps as grens do but lose it slower and cons and grens are matched. if volks cant deny core game features without any drawbacks i would love to see them adjusted accordingly

Finally: Volks don't even have Incendiaries out of the gate. It requires that they build an SWS truck, giving you an early window where OKW can basically do nothing if you decide to sit behind green cover, or enter a building. this is also the window where they will out number and out gun enemies, furthermore, as suggested sturms would be the answer here, and volks wouldnt be without teetch as suggested further up You as soviet even have several options early on to provide force multipliers/deal with cover/garrisons. You can build your Mortar (or even Zis) practically immediately, and maxims (Though Maxims have deathloop issues, obviously)and in sanders suggestion here okw will have everything shy of a King Tiger for like 15mp and a stick of chewing gum, any cheaper and the game would have to give OKW resources for teching up instead of the other way around.

the long and short is being able to remove enemy cover is giant and should not be freely available without any realy tactical though in using it. torching cover is huge because it not only removes the defensive bonuses of cover but if it makes the enemy miove, they will lose dps as well.
combined with units like mgs that need to pack up, and especially the maxim who is prone to deathlooping its not great for balance.

the long and short is being able to remove enemy cover is giant and should not be freely available without any realy tactical though in using it. torching cover is huge because it not only removes the defensive bonuses of cover but if it makes the enemy miove, they will lose dps as well.
combined with units like mgs that need to pack up, and especially the maxim who is prone to deathlooping its not great for balance.

Sturms sort of are overloaded, even early. OKW are already reliant on them to assault and push away enemy infantry, deny cover (Through their slow Barbed wire), are the only source of Healing for OKW if they don't go BGHQ (and if they do this they're not likely to have a ton of Muni for STGs and Incendiaries) and repair the ultralights that OKW is likely to have early (The 221 or Kubel). They're also the only engineer squad that you really can't justify having multiple of, given their price/performance (later on) and their popcap.

I don't think they're a good candidate for being OKW's only source of anti-structure/anti-cover early on, as-is. Perhaps if they had a change someone else suggested, initially having MP40s, being 5pop, having access to a flamer upgrade by default (And having the option to upgrade to STGs to become precisely the same unit they are now, the initial sturm would remain pre-upgraded) then it might make sense, but it really doesnt right now. Limiting OKW access to fire EVEN FURTHER with no real compensation is an unjustifiable nerf.


Vet2 offsets it due to other surrounding factors, as mentioned. The fact that SOV get the best flamethrower squad in the game (Thanks to Merge), the fact they have oorah, and the fact that they simply have OPTIONS, whereas OKW does not. OKW's flame nade being somewhat stronger than SOVs really is fine. UKFs grenade is better than USFs (Until vet, then USF have a range advantage, though their grenade is still more expensive and has a longer fuse), despite being even closer in functionality than Molo and Incendiary. Tools a faction has do not need to be exactly the same, given that each faction has their own strengths.

Conscripts should perhaps not have to pay so much for AT grenades and Molotovs, but given that, again, SOV have options in the anticover category, and they have a nondoctrinal sprint, it's difficult to justify them getting it for "free" like OKW do. Incidentally, Oorah isnt 20 munitions, it's 15. You end up spending 5 munitions more to sprint around and then throw your molotov. Your desire for a cheaper throwable is already the case. Also: I keep reiterating this, but OKW may have no choice but to frontally charge an MG that SOV could instead have a mortar smoke out, given that SOV can actually build a mortar early. This isn't even mentioning that if you're playing against OKW as Soviet you won't be facing MGs early game, whereas if they face you they very well could be.


Comparing the performance of Grens and Volks directly against Cons doesn't really mean much. OST has their MG to back up Grenadiers, OKW does not. The drawback, again, is the fact that OKW are very limited in what they can field early. They're the only faction without an early AI team weapon, and only one of two without a (practically) out-of-the-gate MG option.

Are you really outnumbered/outgunned early against OKW as Sov? Cons are fairly comparable in performance to Volks despite being significantly cheaper in both cost and reinforcement. Sturms are the confounding factor, but they're very expensive themselves, and if you manage to avoid getting ambushed you can make favourable trades against them, particularly if you focus them with multiple squads.


I can't comment on Sander's changes in this context, they're still evolving.

This isn't even mentioning that if you're playing against OKW as Soviet you won't be facing MGs early game, whereas if they face you they very well could be.

id be happy to see a soviet player use maxims in its current state... it means hes sinking 260mp on a useless unit that cannot stop 2 volksgrenadiers...

At last, some ideas to touch up Soviet commanders. Let me know what you think.

Tried to keep everything to 1 ability swap max again to keep things simple. I have to say Soviet commanders are an even bigger mess than Ostheer commanders with the sheer amount of copy/paste that's going on and the lack of unique abilities.

General Ability changes

PPSH Assault Package
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Allied Supply Drop
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B-4 203mm howitzer
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Specific Ability changes

Advanced Warfare
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Lend Lease
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Partisan Tactics
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Ability Replacements

Shock Motor Heavy Tactics
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Tank Hunter Tactics
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Soviet Shock Army
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Soviet Reserve Army
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Terror Tactics
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Soviet Industry Tactics
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Soviets Combined Arms Army
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snip

I'd really implore you to just scrap Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry, and replace them with something else in doctrines.

Or completely rework the abilities into something that doesn't promote losing models/squads.

I'd really implore you to just scrap Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry, and replace them with something else in doctrines.

Or completely rework the abilities into something that doesn't promote losing models/squads.

Those abilities are already being addressed in Sander's suggestions list.

Can the Howitzers looked at? I feel like both the ML20 and the leFH 18 are in a weird spot and are almost always inferior choices to rocket arty, this makes commanders with them a hard sell.

ML20: I feel like this gun fires either too slow, too inaccurate or not powerful enough. It's only useful after it gets vet 2 when it get extra rate of fire and accuracy but getting there requires luck because of the aforementioned problems. This all for a price that gives you racket arty truck that's far better out of the gate and is non doc. The vet 1 ability is also kind of boring and uninvolved. Maybe an ability that does an accurate direct strike at long distance for a muni cost? Obviously there should be a flare to give the enemy player time to respond.

leFH 18: While better then the ML20 it still has the problem of being a static arty piece to compete with mobile rocket-trucks that do most its job better for a better price.The vet 1 ability however is completely insane by basically denying any enemy artillery for no player impute (this is multiplied exponentially in large team games). Again a changed vet 1 ability would be better I think.

I love the fact that in Soviet schock motor heavy tactic, you added truck but haven't remove IL-2 bombing run and ISU-152.

Eighter commander should have such powerfull unit like ISU-152 should have in their load out ability that counter the counter to ISU-152. IL-2 should be removed to more balance soviets in teamgames (That should also include a elefant commander for ostheer).

PPSH Assault Package

This would put my complaints about PPSH Conscripts to rest. I would like to see this in the patch and i hope Sander will add it in the list.


B-4 203mm howitzer

Does this change affect the direct strike at all? B4 1 shot meme-ry is however one of the reasons to get the unit, if it can't do nonsense things anymore it might run into the same problems the 2 normal howitzers run into i detailed in my older post. Maybe it would need some stat tweaking, like more AOE but less alpha damage. I dunno, im just spitballing here.


Soviet Reserve Army

Rapid conscription is still kinda lame even with the changes in my opinion. I would much rather see it replaced with For Mother Russia or something. But even in its current form this is a big improvement to the commander in general.


Terror Tactics

I like the idea of a Shock + T34/85 commander, good addition.


Soviets Combined Arms Army

While a step in the good direction im not sure the one new ability is enough combined with the rest of the doctrine to make it stand out. Especially considering the howitzers being as bad as they are.

Anything i didn't mention is good in my opinion.

I love the fact that in Soviet schock motor heavy tactic, you added truck but haven't remove IL-2 bombing run and ISU-152.

Eighter commander should have such powerfull unit like ISU-152 should have in their load out ability that counter the counter to ISU-152. IL-2 should be removed to more balance soviets in teamgames (That should also include a elefant commander for ostheer).

I have added it as additional suggestion in the description now, because I fully agree with you that the IL-2 + ISU combo is too strong for both ISU commanders. It's just that Mechanized Support is more popular now, so nobody is complaining about the combo in Shock Motor.

Do you agree Vehicle Detection should be replaced tho? It seems really useless to me with the strong sight options Soviets have.

Those abilities are already being addressed in Sander's suggestions list.

I've seen, and while the changes are certainly better than the current iteration of the abilities, I still think getting away from it revolving around losing models would be good. Even in that form the ability is going to be very clunky and strange.

I mean, perhaps you both know better than I, but I'd like to try and provide feedback where I can, anyway.

B-4 203mm howitzer

Does this change affect the direct strike at all? B4 1 shot meme-ry is however one of the reasons to get the unit, if it can do nonsense things anymore it might run into the same problems the 2 normal howitzers run into i detailed in my older post. Maybe it would need some stat tweaking, like more AOE but less alpha damage. I dunno, im just spitballing here.

I hadn't thought of changing direct strike, because the B-4 is in my opinion already better than the 152mm and LefH (delivers huge payload immediately and also has relatively shorter reload time cause it only fires 1 shot).

The change is mostly to make the B-4 less frustrating to play against, while not directly changing its design (a design which is stupid imo). The short stun makes up for the lower damage and gives better synergy against heavy tanks than it has currently.

Soviet Reserve Army

Rapid conscription is still kinda lame even with the changes in my opinion. I would much rather see it replaced with For Mother Russia or something. But even in its current form this is a big improvement to the commander in general.

My first thought was replacing Rapid Conscription with the Commissar squad for both commanders, but I had some concerns that those commanders might overshadow NKVD then.

An ability that refunds lost models with manpower would be pretty good already though, considering both commanders have PPSH Conscripts, so I decided to keep Rapid Conscription on both.

Soviets Combined Arms Army

While a step in the good direction im not sure the one new ability is enough combined with the rest of the doctrine to make it stand out. Especially considering the howitzers being as bad as they are.

I know, but I was literally out of ideas, other Guard doctrines already offer anything you would want to need.

Here's a wild idea though: how about a Red Banner T34/85 Command Tank as a replacement for IL-2 bombs for this commander instead? The tank happens to already be in the game files. Bonusses would have to be determined by the balance team as to keep things balanced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtDNG3nJPL8&t=3m18s

PPSH Assault Package

The PPsh upgrade does need any buff it was dominant when buffed last time and suffers ony from power creep (see SVT).

If one was determined for changes one could:
separate "hit the dirt ppsh "a defensive ability and ppsh do not mix well.
and/or
create a separate unit
and/or
replace mosin with another weapon ppsh or toned down SVT (adjust ppsh if needed)
and/or
upgrade now take all weapons slots
and/or
offer a reifocment discount since CQC units suffer more casualties

Allied Supply Drop

The exchange rate 1/3 is the fine since it is standard. The ability is map depend is counter in some map impossible to counter in others. AA/Planes interaction need an overhaul.

B-4 203mm howitzer

Since the CD nerf to howitzer the unit is up compared to other howitzer.

The direction is good, I would suggest thou:
longer CD
and/or
Less damage
and/or
bonus damage to structures
and/or
critical to infatry/vehicles like injured driver/gunner, shell critical to infatry (temporary reduction to performance)
and/or
direct fire become a toggle mode with AT shell (no AOE) and sort range 60-50.

M5 Half-Track Assault Group

replace m5 with m3 lower cost

Shock Motor Heavy Tactics

Only thing commander need is removing the IL-2

Vehicle detection is a weak ability but the ISU is one of the most powerful super heavies so the rest of the abilities should weaker.

Zis truck is NO form me for reason above.

It is the Mechanized Support Tactics that need nerf and not this commander buffs.

Tank Hunter Tactics

No to B4 and to ML20. The commander is AT themed and AI units do not fit.

The commander could use the following changes:

tank ambush applies only to zis/su-85/SU-76. No penalties and extra vision as a bonus, using tracking or focus sight break camo.

B4/Ml20 replaces by scavenger or a new CE units that scavenge or by mark target

IL-3 AT bombing now delivers minimal damage to buildings/infatry but arrives faster and is cheaper. Cause critical like injured driver gunner.



Not a big fan of the rest of the changes.
Generally speaking Soviet commanders have some abilities that exist in many commander and some that are available to few commanders. Imo one should reduce the number of very common abilities and increase the number of more rare abilities. Some abilities like "tank hunter ambush" should remain "trade mark" to commanders.

This is an older and out of date post that show how frequent some abilities are:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/81491/suggestions-for-commanders-revamp

For instance one of the most frequent ability is shock troops with around 7 commander and removing them from commander that also provide other powerful units like super heavies could work wonder in increasing the "meta" commanders.

I have added it as additional suggestion in the description now, because I fully agree with you that the IL-2 + ISU combo is too strong for both ISU commanders. It's just that Mechanized Support is more popular now, so nobody is complaining about the combo in Shock Motor.

Do you agree Vehicle Detection should be replaced tho? It seems really useless to me with the strong sight options Soviets have.

thx for including,
i mean ISU + IL-2 is combo untouch from the begging of the game and it's crazy strong. Imagine that without it units like lefh and pak43 could acually counter isu152 so commander wouldn't be so brainless pick in teamgames (again, same story with elefant).

Vehicule Detection is awkward ability. Some would say is potent but i don't see people using it. On paper it good becouse you see if enemy tanks try to flank your ISU but in reality people forget about it and tends to use more common sight options (as you already meantion above).


I like the idea and effort to put a soviet truck into the commander but sadly as same as ostheer opel blitz it would see much present becouse buff doesn't include a teammates. And Again making it as OKW opel as reinforcing platform is also hard becouse soviets already that type of unit - M5 (in which i would love to see healing inside). I would consider to make it more support role, maybe even allow it to drop healing and weapons like svts or ptrs or simply make it a soviet ambulance.

To piggyback on what Jibber said, a command T34/85 would be a breath of fresh air for numerous doctrines. Ideally making it a regular T34/85 but with the UKF command vehicle applied on it, with its command unit debuffs and aura buffs.

The PPsh upgrade does need any buff it was dominant when buffed last time and suffers ony from power creep (see SVT).

It's not powercreep, it's just not good value and comes later compared to CQC options of similar strength of other factions.

At most you could remove the PPSH upgrade from Guard Rifle Combined and only keep hit the dirt, cause that's already a top 5 commander that doesn't really need CQC infantry on top of elite long range infantry. The other PPSH commanders aren't nearly as good in comparison.

replace m5 with m3 lower cost

An M3 at this timing would be useless. You can upgrade the M5 with the Quad so it can grind stuff at long range, you don't want to be doing drive-bys at 3 CP (the 7 to 8 minute mark).

Maybe if you reduced it to 2 CP and replaced the M5 with USF Mechanized's Assault M3, I don't see a need for it though.

Vehicle detection is a weak ability but the ISU is one of the most powerful super heavies so the rest of the abilities should weaker.

Zis truck is NO form me for reason above.

While I agree IL-2 bombing strike should be replaced as well, vehicle detection is the most useless ability I can think of in the Soviet ability roster. If Vehicle Detection is kept, it should be an ability available to every infantry squad individually and only cost 15 munitions to activate like on PTRS Conscripts and AT-Rifle Sections (cost should be lowered on Schreck Storms as well).

Anyway, a supply truck really wouldn't be that strong outside of 1v1, because resources aren't shared. An exception maybe maps with a very safe fuel, which aren't common.

No to B4 and to ML20. The commander is AT themed and AI units do not fit.

B-4 is AT themed, or it wouldn't do 640 damage (or 480 + stun as I suggested). I can find you plenty of compilations of B-4's killing vehicles.

Generally speaking Soviet commanders have some abilities that exist in many commander and some that are available to few commanders. Imo one should reduce the number of very common abilities and increase the number of more rare abilities. Some abilities like "tank hunter ambush" should remain "trade mark" to commanders.

This sounds contradictory: reducing the number of common abilities, while increasing the number of rare abilities. You'd have to design a lot of new abilities if you want to accomplish that.

I tried to keep it reasonably simple with 1 ability swap max and creating new abilities only if the assets already exist (ZiS supply truck and smoke drop would be reasonably easy to add).