Team Weapons Survivability

Recently I've been playing a lot of 1s and 2s and i feel that wehrmacht, while strong with ostruppen, 5 man grens and p4 timing are still kind of hamstrung by the fragility of their AT guns & MG42 once rocket arty hits the field when compared to soviet or OKW counterparts. Compare this with all other factions except UKF, they actually have an affordable, easy to access form of AT.

Current opinions of each factions team weapons (AT guns in particular)

1. USF have access to decent AT guns for 270 MP, in addition to RE zook squads which are decent in piling on damage to light and mediums.

2. Soviet have 6 man team weapons and arty barrage on Zis, imo this is an outdated mechanic from a long ago era where their Maxims and Zis-3s were flat out worse than Axis counter parts, where they needed the extra survivability.

3. OKW has AT accessible at T0, people have mixed opinions of them but i think they're in a strong position rn.

4. UKF probably suffers the most from terrible team weapon syndrome, don't really have to say much other than vickers has the same problem as Mg34 against blobs of >3 squads. You can fire off a burst first and still end up losing the squad without suppressing a single one. Their AT guns i think are in a good spot with the vet 3 buff increasing pen and damage.

5. Wehrmacht has good team weapon synergy where it can feel fun and engaging in the early and mid game, but really starts to feel like a chore in the late game as you're also the most fragile, notice most wehrmacht players start to transition to just pios and tanks as their infantry and team weapons just get destroyed by one clicks.

I suggest that to bring all team weapons in line with survivability, you can do a few things. For AT guns, they could be brought up or brought down to 5 men across the board. Arguably since wehrmacht are the most "team-weapon oriented" faction, this can hopefully help them weather the tide and preserve vet a little better when it comes to britblobs, rocket arty etc.

For MGs, I suggest that they all be dropped to 4 men, but either accelerate or remove the weapon recrew loop when the gunner dies.

Keep in mind these changes are trying to address the potency of rocket/call in arty in the game where it is just crater city by 20+ minutes in team games.

Edit: Hey guys, after thinking about it more, its probably going to take a huge rebalancing of all factions to make this work. Though I think the topic is still relevant, please feel free to discuss.

I suggest that to bring all team weapons in line with survivability, you can do a few things. For AT guns, they could be brought up or brought down to 5 men across the board. Arguably since wehrmacht are the most "team-weapon oriented" faction, this can hopefully help them weather the tide and preserve vet a little better when it comes to britblobs, rocket arty etc.

For MGs, I suggest that they all be dropped to 4 men, but either accelerate or remove the weapon recrew loop when the gunner dies.

Keep in mind these changes are trying to address the potency of rocket/call in arty in the game where it is just crater city by 20+ minutes in team games.

Death loop not bug, but feature - it can't be changed without game code reworking. Then raks, maxims, dshks - doomed to be in deathloop.
In any way - how you suppose to deal with different stats of different team weapons? MG-42 suppress faster than maxim. Make all MGs the same? How you suppose to deal with different ROF of ATGs? Make all ATGs the same? What you want - create tons of problems with balance and work for nothing.

Don't change things that works fine.

the same problem as Mg34 against blobs of >3 squads. You can fire off a burst first and still end up losing the squad without suppressing a single one

When will this myth ever end? The HMG 34 has excellent suppression, only slightly worse than the HMG 42. It suppresses squads within one burst (in ~1.3s at medium range in neutral cover iirc). So does the Vickers by the way, which only struggles when it snipes a model (resetting the burst and thereby halting the suppression) or when the enemy is at max range and in cover.

snip

I have to disagree on most points.

1. I find them more to be a muni sink in a faction that uses a lot of munis for upgrading their troops. In long games it van be an advantage when you are able to pile up muni again, but apart from that I use USF's ATG only when I have to.

2. Barrage is a topic to discuss about, but SOV 6 men crews are mostly alright unless they crew an MG42 or something. Especially to fix the death loop and the fact that you need to recrew them with high RA models.

3. OKW has otherwise no reliable AT apsrt from the Puma that costs quite a lot. If you'd lose fuel control, you would be absolutely screwed as OKW.

4.UKF's team wrapons are almost on par with those of OST. Vickers has okay suppression and decent damage, the ATG is almost a carbon copy of the PaK40.

5. One point that I agree with, but on the other hand you get the best team weapons in the game. So there must be a draw back.


I can't therefore agree with your solutions. This would just make the units even more similar. Currently, every unit has its own feature that sets it at least somewhat apart. Even if your suggestions would solve the rocket arty issue, they would screw big time with faction and infantry/vehicle balance.

When will this myth ever end? The HMG 34 has excellent suppression, only slightly worse than the HMG 42. It suppresses squads within one burst (in ~1.3s at medium range in neutral cover iirc). So does the Vickers by the way, which only struggles when it snipes a model (resetting the burst and thereby halting the suppression) or when the enemy is at max range and in cover.

I think this mostly shows how Rarely people really play the MG34. OKW does not need it for their builds, so people usually skip it. I have the feeling most people build it when they are already losing the whole game. And if it does mot save them, then the MG must be bad because it is associated with losses.

I see this as more of an issue for UKF and USF as they lack rocket artillery of their own.

While I would like to see more support weapon usage across the board if rockets arty didn't counter it reliably AT walls would be insufferable.

For the late game I usually use AT guns as part of a layered defence and try to move them after each encounter. Unless I'm against OKW where I ditch support weapon play once a stuka hits the field as that thing just cancels them out.

When will this myth ever end? The HMG 34 has excellent suppression, only slightly worse than the HMG 42. It suppresses squads within one burst (in ~1.3s at medium range in neutral cover iirc). So does the Vickers by the way, which only struggles when it snipes a model (resetting the burst and thereby halting the suppression) or when the enemy is at max range and in cover.

I'll save a reply next time it happens, usually its not the fault of the mg34 but rather before it gets to finish the burst, the gunner gets instakilled by m1919s, guards lmgs etc.

I'll save a reply next time it happens, usually its not the fault of the mg34 but rather before it gets to finish the burst, the gunner gets instakilled by m1919s, guards lmgs etc.

If you out it in green cover it's harder to hit and takes less damage.

This is an outright OST buff while they are already in a good position having the strongest teamweapons across the board, so no.

Just... nerf rocket arti wipe power. Lower damage, increase time to barrage completion and rocket count, decrease damage especially if garrisoned or in green cover.
Make RA area denial instead of a veterancy deleter (like a lower scatter Land Mattress)

The lack of universal rocket arty gimps those without in team games.

Just... nerf rocket arti wipe power. Lower damage, increase time to barrage completion and rocket count, decrease damage especially if garrisoned or in green cover.
Make RA area denial instead of a veterancy deleter (like a lower scatter Land Mattress)

The lack of universal rocket arty gimps those without in team games.

Rocket arty is very much intended hard counter to weapon teams.
Its suppose to excel against them.

It just makes them... obsolete late game in any team circumstance. Instead of threatening them, it just nukes outright (well, all but SZF needs to get close to do it, but they all launch quickish. Makes vetted team weapons feel like they are on borrowed time. Ive never seen a vet 3 UKF AT gun. The Vet 3 MG i had got hit by cross dropping SZF.

Soviets still suffer from the weird gunner killed Repeat and die okw flame nade and 22 flamer, basically.

Then stuka comes and deletes them anyway, that at gun is annoying delete it😀

Edit: Hey guys, after thinking about it more, its probably going to take a huge rebalancing of all factions to make this work. Though I think the topic is still relevant, please feel free to discuss.

when it comes to crew survivability, id say 50 cal must be the worst.

Can anybody explain why people keep repeating that ost has the best team weapons? I don't get that.

Can anybody explain why people keep repeating that ost has the best team weapons? I don't get that.

they want their allied infantry to stomp grenadiers, thats why this is their killer argument for all approaches to making gren builds viable

Can anybody explain why people keep repeating that ost has the best team weapons? I don't get that.

Because, as you can read on this site:

https://coh2db.com/stats/

They have the best stats and in their given role they all perform as #1 without contest.
If you carefully check their tech, you'll also notice they have best availability of them compared only to UKF, but UKF got inferior vet abilities and stats on 2 out of 3 support units.

they want their allied infantry to stomp grenadiers, thats why this is their killer argument for all approaches to making gren builds viable

pretty much that - the problem is that too many people believe it and instead of l2p they keep excusuing poor skill by repeating such myths from 6-7 years ago...

Because, as you can read on this site:

https://coh2db.com/stats/

They have the best stats and in their given role they all perform as #1 without contest.
If you carefully check their tech, you'll also notice they have best availability of them compared only to UKF, but UKF got inferior vet abilities and stats on 2 out of 3 support units.

If you really can compare multiple stats simultaneously, you will see that it is not true...