Long story short: Imo a unit that can wipe infantry squads at 70 range does not fit the game. The Brumm was nerfed because it could do that at range 40. It was tuned down to half the range of the ISU(35). Sure it wasn't doctrinal. But the main issue with the ISU-152 is that it hardcounters Paks and Raketens before those can fight back. Brummbär can't do that - it can get off a shot with the vet 1... but that's not a permanent issue like with the ISU.
And countering it with Elefant or JT is not a good option. A unit that can only be countered by going for a doctrine is wrong design because it locks out all the other doctrines.
State of the ISU-152
22 Jun 2020, 18:25 PM
#1
Posts: 978
22 Jun 2020, 18:47 PM
#2
Posts: 281
Long story short: Imo a unit that can wipe infantry squads at 70 range does not fit the game. The Brumm was nerfed because it could do that at range 40. It was tuned down to half the range of the ISU(35). Sure it wasn't doctrinal. But the main issue with the ISU-152 is that it hardcounters Paks and Raketens before those can fight back. Brummbär can't do that - it can get off a shot with the vet 1... but that's not a permanent issue like with the ISU.
And countering it with Elefant or JT is not a good option. A unit that can only be countered by going for a doctrine is wrong design because it locks out all the other doctrines.
isu is slow and difficult to maneuver, one can easily swarm it with tank. and I think for the cost the performance is justified especially taking into account the not so good anti tank performance and long reload time
22 Jun 2020, 18:54 PM
#3
Posts: 14
And countering it with Elefant or JT is not a good option. A unit that can only be countered by going for a doctrine is wrong design because it locks out all the other doctrines.
Countering doctrine with doctrine is fine. Elefant is the better TD (obviously not vs Inf).
22 Jun 2020, 19:00 PM
#4
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
ISU would probably be fine if it didn't come with IL2 bombs and non-doctrinal T34 ram. Elefant and JT don't even work as a proper counter to ISU and there are no other counters to it other than maybe a good Panther + Stuka CAS push.
22 Jun 2020, 19:20 PM
#5
Posts: 282
I think the push of the ISU is what we expect from an Heavy tank, maybe the range is kinda hard to manage, but it is slow af.
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22 Jun 2020, 19:44 PM
#6
Posts: 260
Yeah, it does have a strong wipe potential.
That said, it's a very pricey and doctrinal late game tank so I feel like if you undermine its ability too much, it would probably be somewhat of a useless unit.
I heard there's ways to make it so that certain attacks can only kill "X" amount of models per hits. Maybe nerf it so that it can only wipe out 2 models per hit? That would at least give weapon crews a chance to back off. I'd complain that it would make it too weak versus infantry but if you also improve the scatter on HE so that it hits reliably it should balance it out somewhat.
That said, it's a very pricey and doctrinal late game tank so I feel like if you undermine its ability too much, it would probably be somewhat of a useless unit.
I heard there's ways to make it so that certain attacks can only kill "X" amount of models per hits. Maybe nerf it so that it can only wipe out 2 models per hit? That would at least give weapon crews a chance to back off. I'd complain that it would make it too weak versus infantry but if you also improve the scatter on HE so that it hits reliably it should balance it out somewhat.
22 Jun 2020, 19:48 PM
#7
Posts: 574
It's a 152mm howitzer strapped to an armoured chassis; it should be able to wipe a squad if it hits it. It's bad enough that it's been nerfed several times and was given an ammo switch ability a few years ago, as historically the ISU did not need to use AP rounds as it was far more effective to blow parts of an enemy tank off with HE rounds. However, that was a 'balance' decision taken at the time.
22 Jun 2020, 19:51 PM
#8
Posts: 379 | Subs: 1
This unit is perfectly fine, y'all just need to learn to counter it. No, really. Just learn to counter it.
22 Jun 2020, 20:10 PM
#9
Posts: 5279
I'd say the unit itself is very strong, but arguably balanced in a vacuum. The issue lies more with its commanders including il-2 bombs which can nix heavy counters and even guards to stop a flank in its tracks. Adjust the commanders to be less flexible and make the choice to go isu an actual choice
#stalinwept
22 Jun 2020, 20:11 PM
#10
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
1 panther is eough to kill it if done right.
l2p issue
l2p issue
22 Jun 2020, 21:03 PM
#11
Posts: 486
70 range TDs are all problematic, especially on long laney maps.
Their commanders are all too well rounded.
Their commanders are all too well rounded.
22 Jun 2020, 21:18 PM
#12
Posts: 600
Leave it as is. its the wrath of the Rodina embodied in metal and oil
an immovable monstrous god machine
an immovable monstrous god machine
22 Jun 2020, 23:14 PM
#13
Posts: 306
The problem with isu lies in its armor and mobility.
For a heavy assoult gun it isnt that slow. And can still bounce a lot of shots.
I think either reduce armor or reduce speed would be a good choice for the Isu. That way it would be easier to dive and axis woundt have to rely so heavy on Ele and JT
For a heavy assoult gun it isnt that slow. And can still bounce a lot of shots.
I think either reduce armor or reduce speed would be a good choice for the Isu. That way it would be easier to dive and axis woundt have to rely so heavy on Ele and JT
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22 Jun 2020, 23:21 PM
#14
Posts: 486
Issue is, Axis reliance on Ele an JT is not super ISU dependent. ISU is pretty weak to a Panther, Ele and JT club enemy heavy TDs.
22 Jun 2020, 23:53 PM
#15
Posts: 379 | Subs: 1
Having read this twice now, in what world does a Panther counter an ISU?
23 Jun 2020, 00:23 AM
#16
Posts: 5279
Having red this twice now, in what world does a Panther counter an ISU?
By shooting it.
#stalinwept
23 Jun 2020, 00:31 AM
#17
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
By shooting it.
The panther has difficulty countering 60 range jacksons and fireflys. How is the 70 range ISU countered moreso?
23 Jun 2020, 00:47 AM
#18
Posts: 5279
The panther has difficulty countering 60 range jacksons and fireflys. How is the 70 range ISU countered moreso?
The 60 range jacksons and fireflies have these twisty m'jiggers on top of their hulls that let's the shoot shoot look one way while the vroomy vroom moves in another. There's a reason you didn't list the also 60 range su85s or su76 and I reckon you'll find that particular trait is shared with the isu.
I was mostly joking in my post, as the support of an isu will help prevent a single Panther from getting the isu of course but that's the entire point of support. Much like a comet isn't going to off anything but the hellen kellerest elefant player
#stalinwept
23 Jun 2020, 01:18 AM
#19
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
The 60 range jacksons and fireflies have these twisty m'jiggers on top of their hulls that let's the shoot shoot look one way while the vroomy vroom moves in another. There's a reason you didn't list the also 60 range su85s or su76 and I reckon you'll find that particular trait is shared with the isu.
I was mostly joking in my post, as the support of an isu will help prevent a single Panther from getting the isu of course but that's the entire point of support. Much like a comet isn't going to off anything but the hellen kellerest elefant player
The reason I didn't add them was because I'm not going to list every 60 range unit in the game. Not that the su76 needs to be listed because of its current state though.
That's the point of this thread though. Whether or not the ISU is too good is up for debate, but because it comes in a doctrine that allows it to contest for best doctrine in the game, a panther doesn't exactly counter the ISU.
23 Jun 2020, 01:22 AM
#20
Posts: 32
ah yes counter the ISU with a single panther
in what game mode and rank would this actually work, outside of a 1 to 1000 situation.
in what game mode and rank would this actually work, outside of a 1 to 1000 situation.
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