CoH2's big gameplay issues

This is a topic Ihave been thinking about for a while now.

I have been a member of this forum for about a year now after being a silent reader for another one and half. So overall my overall memory of the forums and general discussion topics datee back to about the end of 2017.
This was a time where CoH2 was basically still full of exploitable units and mechanics, at all times at least one of the factions was next to unplayable because it was horrendously underpowered, every new update fixed an issue but created another and balance was more and more transitioning to the community.

You don't have to stretch you imagination too far to guess how discussions looked like back then. "Axis Op!", "Allies OP", "XYZ UP!" etc pp. Of course there have also been 'vivid' discussions how to fix these units and what would be the best approach to that. Every day was a new topic, a new thread popping up. Obviously not all of these discussions were constructive (by far not), but usually the laid out issues were quite clear.
Looking through the forums now I have to say it has become quite (for the lack of a better word) boring. Some people complain about lack of polish and missing text strings, the M20 might be under used, the price of the first cache could go down by 50 MP, Comets might be slightly too reliable, the Raketenwerfer does weird little dances when repositioning. Just like it did for the last 5 years. Now I don't want to discredit any of the OP's or topics they want to discuss, they are all valid points when it comes to opening a discussion. The last big outcry we had have been that sections are too strong and Tigers were nerfed too much. The first has settled down and disappeared into nothingness after players took the time to actually play the game instead of just watching Twitch only, while the latter has become a rather specialized discussion about certain stats that many are not able or willing to follow.

But in general I have got the feeling that topics have shifted quite drastically to more minor parts of the whole machine, while neither CoH2 nor the community here on .org has taken a significant hit from what I can tell. Is that shift bad? No, not at all.
I think it tells us more about how far this game has come thanks to mostly the balance team though. At the moment, all factions are playable, there is no clear unit or combination that roflstomps everything across half the map, no 5x maxim or 4x JLI spam builds, and meanwhile also no heavy-only meta anymore. Katitof and Vipper still get into fights regularly, this hasn't changed.

This game is still far from perfect, some units like the SU76 lack their niche, SOV mid game is a bit dull, the Jackson somehow lacks a real weakness,there are missing and outdated text strings, some mechanics or abilities are badly communicated and many more. The biggest I can think of right now if that the Elefant and ISU are a bit too much of a no brainer in team games. And of course some faction have design issues, but fixing them is beyond what the community is capable/allowed to do by Relic.

So, considerung all of this, I have been wondering: what do you think are CoH2's big (gameplay) issues at the moment? Because to be honest, I cannot think of any that would come close to 2018s and also early 2019s problems. Most things have been solved, every faction has a variety of different strats and commanders to chose from, the game is still good fun, nothing is brokenly OP. Everything that we would change at the moment would just add something additional to the game.

Or am I just a little blind in that regard?

Allies having 60-70% win rate in the last 2v2 tourney makes you think the game is balanced? I am confused. If we only took the win-rates from the later rounds it would be even higher and in the finals Axis didn't win a single game. So I definitely would not call this balanced unless the balance team is striving for historical balance.

And correct me if I am wrong the only person that won with OKW for all those rounds in MLNZ is Asiamint. Doesn't seem balanced either. Ostheer crutching on doctrinal infantry to win games is also far from being a good design/balanced.

“ At the moment, all factions are playable, there is no clear unit or combination that roflstomps everything across half the map, no 5x maxim or 4x JLI spam builds”

Barton May have just popularised the 5 Zis gun build after this weekend...

Allies having 60-70% win rate in the last 2v2 tourney makes you think the game is balanced? I am confused. If we only took the win-rates from the later rounds it would be even higher and in the finals Axis didn't win a single game. So I definitely would not call this balanced unless the balance team is striving for historical balance.

And correct me if I am wrong the only person that won with OKW for all those rounds in MLNZ is Asiamint. Doesn't seem balanced either. Ostheer crutching on doctrinal infantry to win games is also far from being a good design/balanced.

I have not seen any aggregated stats yet on the 2v2 tourney.
I also got the feeling that Allies were able to bleed Axis a bit more due to the mortar pit, but from what I saw balance got much better once perimeter overwatch was banned, which would make it mostly an issue with a single ability. Judging that almost everybody chose SOV/UKF as a matchup, the synergy might be slightly too good.
I am still hoping for Siphon X to do his magic and to give the communit a somewhat decent basis for discussion, but from what I know everybody at the moment can just judge from a hand ful of games they saw on Twitch. Or am I missing something here?
The last bigger analysis that I remember from Siphon X looked pretty balanced, but I think the basis was still the pre-patch heavy meta. So yes: for the time being I call this game mostly balanced, as I have no reliable reason and data to believe otherwise.

There are still some issues with Grens etc, but at least I find them personally less game breaking by far than most of the issues we had two years ago

Giga doctrines and bunkers.

This is a topic Ihave been thinking about for a while now.

Katitof and Vipper still get into fights regularly, this hasn't changed.

+1


The next big topic imo will be a big commander revamp. Several doctrines need a rework, so they are not as opressive and allow for other doctrines to shine.

Jäger armor, isu doctrines and prob some other as well. Other commmanders could need improvments. Making the command p4 somewhat viable would be cool.

Grens are still in a weired late game space without 5 man upgrade.

But overall, the game is in the most balanced state since launch.

Allies having 60-70% win rate in the last 2v2 tourney makes you think the game is balanced?

Tourney stats are always highly unreliable. Not saying that it isn't something to be concerned about, but it's also absolutely not something to use as a baseline. At the same time, recent automatch 1v1 stats (based on 315k games compared to a few dozen) show a completely different picture with all factions being within 1% of each other except for Soviets being slightly worse.

The next big topic imo will be a big commander revamp. Several doctrines need a rework, so they are not as opressive and allow for other doctrines to shine.

Personally, I think that if there's a next patch, it should be a big polish and standardization update. Iron out as much of the UI and text issues and inconsistencies as possible on top of a handful of meta fixes.

Tourney stats are always highly unreliable. Not saying that it isn't something to be concerned about, but it's also absolutely not something to use as a baseline. At the same time, recent automatch 1v1 stats (based on 315k games compared to a few dozen) show a completely different picture with all factions being within 1% of each other except for Soviets being slightly worse.

In automatch people get matched based on their elo rating so WR will always be close to 50%. Not sure how that says much about balance.

I have not seen any aggregated stats yet on the 2v2 tourney.
I also got the feeling that Allies were able to bleed Axis a bit more due to the mortar pit, but from what I saw balance got much better once perimeter overwatch was banned, which would make it mostly an issue with a single ability

Allies won 5/5 games in the finals without Perimeter Overwatch. Many of the games were not even close either.

In automatch people get matched based on their elo rating so WR will always be close to 50%. Not sure how that says much about balance.

The matchmaker creating 50% win ratios obviously only works for the middle brackets. On either side of the skill range this doesn't work. The total average win ratio still isn't a pure representation of balance, but it does show a decent enough perspective. The difference between the average total win ratios has shrunk since 2019 (from 52.1-48 to 51-48) and the differences in win ratios between the top 10% players have also shrunk quite a bit (from 78-66/65-56 to 73-66/62-55). In fact, at almost every skill level the difference in win ratios has either been steady (around the 50% brackets as expected) or gone down.

Which would indicate an improvement in balance, at least for 1v1, in sharp contrast to the 2v2 tourney. But as I've said, tourney stats are always highly unreliable due to the nature of the matches (spawns, best of 3s, etc.) and low sample size, and should never be used as anything more than something remotely indicative. The tourney results are definitely something to look at, but they are also definitely not a proper representation of balance.

Allies won 5/5 games in the finals without Perimeter Overwatch. Many of the games were not even close either.

I also had a +5 win streak once. Good times...

No but seriously, I hope you don't want to argue based on 5 games?

We really cannot make conclusion if we have that little info. Game for third place was 3-2 for Allies, and Axis did very well apart from the last game were Brosras+Artavick completely fell apart mostly due to lack of micro. I could argue with those five games and come to a completely different conclusion.

In automatch people get matched based on their elo rating so WR will always be close to 50%. Not sure how that says much about balance.

Yes, the thing is that the the curves are relatively stable and equal also at the end of the rankings. If you get a better ELO ranking just because your faction is OP, then we should see a higher win percentage than usual for that faction at the low ranks. This seems to be the case for OKW, while SOV and UKF have an even lower win rate. On the other hand, if a faction is UP, then it should also show this on the top percent of the player ranks. Here again we can see that SOV is lower than the others and the rest seems to merge into similar spots (UKF has a slight bulge though).

In automatch people get matched based on their elo rating so WR will always be close to 50%. Not sure how that says much about balance.

So...........
You just said if people are matched based on their skill, then games is balanced.

There is no Elo inflation due to bad players abusing any op unit or ability, which means the game is more or less balanced, which is what Sander confirmed with recent win ratios.

Allies won 5/5 games in the finals without Perimeter Overwatch. Many of the games were not even close either.

Error margain is considerably larger then 5 games you know.

5 games you're refering to indicates exclusively that these teams used allied rocket arty better(because finals were all about abusing brummbars and rocket arty).

Balance is the best it has been for years as you say but the things I think need fixing are:

- ALL units that are doctrinal require to be built from the appropriate tech, from ostruppen to land matress, doctrines just unlock the ability to build them.

- Still too many weapon drops, I would rather see the mechanic removed, nothing worse than spending 100 muni on weapons to just give to the enemy.

- Some MG's just don't do their job *Cough* Vickers *Cough*, if an enemy from max range can crawl upto your MG, something isn't right.

- AT nades and AT weapons on the same squads is BS

- Medic fix for the UKF retarded medic squad

- Various UI updates such as $$9")!" NO KEY "")£$"££ for the smoke barrange on UKF pyro tommies and ability descriptions that don't match the unit "OST Rifle nade has further range but less damage" - Ha.

- Various audio queues such as "We have lost a crocodile flamethrower tank" when your halftrack dies etc.

Personally, I think that if there's a next patch, it should be a big polish and standardization update. Iron out as much of the UI and text issues and inconsistencies as possible on top of a handful of meta fixes.

+1

I do think that the game cries for certain bugs to be fixed. A lot of issues have been reported in the winter patch- and "bugs & issues" thread. Many of those have been identified by people already providing a possible fix. For example, as it was mentioned just today the Sturmtiger range buff and other veterancies in general not fitting their descriptions is a huge problem for everyone who is not looking everything up on the internet.

UI and Text issues fixed will make the game feel way more "complete" for casuals like me and give an impression of CoH2 being supported well.

I would not go as far as saying it´s "game breaking. It´s not. But i could imagine it would help players who feel that way. Definetly lightening the ... "stress" ( hard to explain for me, sorry )

Allies having 60-70% win rate in the last 2v2 tourney makes you think the game is balanced? I am confused. If we only took the win-rates from the later rounds it would be even higher and in the finals Axis didn't win a single game. So I definitely would not call this balanced unless the balance team is striving for historical balance.

Completely disagree, I think by far the biggest factor in 2v2 is map & spawn (next to the players making the correct decisions ofc).

I'm curious how "OP" allies will be if we let them play north spawn on Elst Outskirts, Eindhoven and Wolfheze. On all 3 maps I think the map works against the north side, with cover, sightblockers and garrisons that make a comeback way harder compared to south once you got pushed back or opponent dug in on a VP / resource sector.

One I can think of straight out is a completely busted movement system.

When you order a unit to move, it will first try to establish a formation, which means that it clumps up (or at least a few models derp around) right on the place where it currently is standing

Makes dodging nades and projectiles a real pleasure



And then there are the FUBAR maps. Moscow, Kharkov, Minsk, Arnhem, Unbalanced Glider, Langres,

North spawns are pretty much insta-lose against an equally performing opponent

With my mod release, I try to adjust many issues but I am not trying to push it here.

Big changes:
Vehicle abandonment. People should not be punished or rewarded for the playing the game. This is uncontrollable RNG. The same could be said for both for main gun destroyed and well as slot item drops.

I am currently recording matches with the recent tournament for my personal channel. The gameplays see like it is the same thing over and over again with minor variations. Many things and ideas can be used to spice it up.

One man snipers should be changed. This topic along could use its own thread

Ostheer's Teching could have another look at it. Battlephases should increase what is available in each structures and units upgrades rather than the current teching with extra steps. Also, grens should be in T0. Ostheer initial game is so slow and confined to a single style. Few doctrines 'fix' this issue thus reducing the pool of viable doctrines.

Brits still need a non doc mobile mortar and late game arty such as 25 pounder emplacement. The mortar emplacement is no substitute.

OKW's King Tiger is holding them back. Any adjustments to teching affects the king. Additionally, OKW does not have a dedicated anti infantry vehicle in T3. A short barrel p4 would help.


Small changes
The difference between panzerfussilers and volks. They are too alike.
Partisans could be merged to one unit
Stormtroopers
Osttruppen's accuracy buff/debuff system
Ostheer Puma should be non-doc


Doctrines that need adjustment and reworked

Anti-infantry doctrine
-Shares 3 of the same abilities with both shock-rifle frontine and terror tactices. Two abilities overlap with fear propaganda and incendiary barrage.

Soviet Shock Army
-Do I even need to explain?

Festung Support
-250 Mortar half track and Left 18 overlap

Encirclement
-As much as I like the concept. It is generally not practical. It could rework to focus on the act of encirclement rather than when you make an encirclement.

Infantry Company
-M21 mortar halftrack and M7 Priest overlap

Difference between the Easy 8 vs and the 76mm. Command Easy 8?

Also, grens should be in T0.

P-Grens in T0.
Grens in T0.

When will it end? 222 as Ostheer's starting unit?

P-Grens in T0.
Grens in T0.

When will it end? 222 as Ostheer's starting unit?

Move the p-grens and the MG 42 to t1, simple.

Allies having 60-70% win rate in the last 2v2 tourney makes you think the game is balanced? I am confused. If we only took the win-rates from the later rounds it would be even higher and in the finals Axis didn't win a single game. So I definitely would not call this balanced unless the balance team is striving for historical balance.

You must be blind. Blaming Allies OP for Noggano throwing 2 Cmd PV in the final match and tourney having stupid rule of fixed spawns which gives allies advantage on Elst outskirts due to easier access to VPs. Also many of the games were super close with no clear winner until 50 minutes in, but according to you it was just a one-sided allies stomping axis and of course no misplays on axis side ever happened, no map favoring allied spawn was played and there were no close games, just allies stomping axis with its op units.

I think you look at tourney results alone ignoring all the factors that don't match your idea and as such you draw wrong conclusions.

I am happy I saw USF like 4 times or sth. Too bad it lost all the games. The inglorious Jackson OP, Pak Howie OP, Riflemen OP, USF ATG OP, .50 cal OP, OP faction that didn't win a game. How could that happen?