Medium tank: initial cost per faction

So many hours in and didn't know that. Thanks! So bounces don't snare and snares hitting above 75% don't snare. Good to know.

Snares bouncing still always cause engine damage. They just don't deal full damage, but only a smaller amount of deflection damage. Which can be the difference between a vehicle dying or surviving with a small amount of hitpoints left.

Ostheer's early game is also aggressive today, what your saying isn't true anymore.

Without using light vehicles?

And why people skip man power as metric when doing this calculations?

Without using light vehicles?

Not the norm but yes. While most people rush T2 for LV, it is possible to skip it altogether and just go for an Ostwind.

Osstruppen/AssG openings are "aggressive" in nature (map control "aggressive" in the case of Ossttruppen) which naturally leads to shock T2 LV but it is not always the case.

I don't think manpower is a blocker. Over the last patches we've seen a lot of cost reduction for everything and that makes also medium tanks hitting the field sooner.

dude ur calculation are all over the place https://www.coh2.org/topic/96750/redirect-thread-faction-teching-and-timing

What would change if Pz4 arrived later? You would still need something like 2 minutes of window for M4 to pay for itself before Pz4 arrives and if that were to ocurr, why would you? Seriously, Early riflemen win vs gren 1:1. Later on, with bar they win vs pgren, mid game M4 would destroy any LV, TW and infantry leftovers OST has. A single pak cant deal with a M4 if there is no snare nearby (grens are pretty much shut down by anything USF has)
Therefore insta win for USF.

Without using light vehicles?

That's a fair remark, Elchino responded already yes today Ostheer can push from minute 0 with assgrenadier and the amount of players using them shows that they are effective and Ostheer doesn't suffer from not having snares early game (at least vs USF).
Then Grenadier are weaker than riflmen for the first 3-4 minutes, once you upgrade the lmg42 they beat vanilla riflemen. If you want the riflemen to stay on top you must paid 15 fuel. If you want the riflemen to also use grenade (as grenadiers do) you must again pay 15 fuel. If you want to heal them, pay 10 fuel more.
At the same time you get your first lmg42 you also get your first pzgrenadier which is completely capable of pushing anything 1:1 the USF player can oppose, after all that's an elite unit.

Now we can't take the Gren vs riflemen matchup in a vacuum, there is also the HMG42 and pioneer with super vision to articulate your early game.

So yes, I don't see any particular reason for Ostheer to not push only with infantry.

...
At the same time you get your first lmg42 you also get your first pzgrenadier which is completely capable of pushing anything 1:1 the USF player can oppose, after all that's an elite unit.

Now we can't take the Gren vs riflemen matchup in a vacuum, there is also the HMG42 and pioneer with super vision to articulate your early game.

So yes, I don't see any particular reason for Ostheer to not push only with infantry.

Since i said that, i think you responded to my post. Let me answer back. From my experience at least.

Hipothetically: (not the same as vacuum experiment)
Lmg42 is a heavy investment that competes with teller mines, one is needed in case LVs come into place and the other to keep riflemen away. If the OST player used the munition on one, he will not be able to react to the other Pgren are effective but really MP heavy and also bleed more than grens, its anoter way to keep AI potential, at the expense of MP instead of Muni. In both cases (LMG, pgren) the usf is a step ahead in the reaction chain and probably seeing the OST player strategy clearly, if its a defensive or pushing unit composition. Pgren can be beaten by brute force that USF can handle. On the other side, OST is "forced" to open its strategy(namely, show it, make desitions that will exclude other options aswell), because grens succumb among riflemen if no other route is taken, therefore losing map control and probably the game. Pgren might be the best tool OST has to break the stalemate.

Offensive openings dont involve HMG42 simply because of its vulnerability and even when they force a single squad retreat,in 1v1s the map is open enough to allow flanks or cutoff maneuvers. If you are not flanking the MG, it means it is idle and thats one squad less for OST (260 MP to be exact) that is already losing in 1:1 encounters.

P.S.
In all situation we are representing a typical match that has OST and USF going for the OP premise. A medium tank rush, with the needed tools in between.

Therefore, if a map is garrison heavy, grenades and ambo are required, even when OST dont invest in FU for their tools, they are not having the upper hand vs early USF. BP1 is quite easy to achieve, but then BP2 is the hard part, the part that USF exploits the most. If OST goes for LVs then the example is broken, if USF goes for LVs, the same thing.

I was wondering why as USF I always see the Pz4 hitting the field faster than my Sherman.

This happens to me too but 99/100 it's because I built a stuart or Flak HT. I don't see any balance issue with the timing of the p4

I´d love to see the MP calculation for that now.

Would be interesting to see, which faction would have the most MP by the average time the first medium hits the field.

You could then argue about map presence and stuff.

Ofc MP gain gets smaller, but for the sole compairson the "max" amount would do fine i guess

I´d love to see the MP calculation for that now.

Would be interesting to see, which faction would have the most MP by the average time the first medium hits the field.

You could then argue about map presence and stuff.

Ofc MP gain gets smaller, but for the sole compairson the "max" amount would do fine i guess

I literally posted the calculation for the tech of MP and fuel for all factions u can are it in the link

This direct comparisons always miss one small but very important detail: your fuel income is dependent on map control.

USF and OKW have aggressive early games, so their tech tends to be a bit more expensive to offset that.

stupid point

OST has just best timing of LVs and MVs, especially with ostwind, also their LVs are very cheap and dont need to spend fuel for anything else than tiering, also can skip t1 and t2