I was wondering why as USF I always see the Pz4 hitting the field faster than my Sherman. Only case when it doesn't happen is if I completely outplay my opponent.
So I made a sheet about it.
I think I could share it here.
Medium tank: initial cost per faction
16 May 2020, 13:29 PM
#1
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
16 May 2020, 13:33 PM
#2
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
There is simple explanation.
Ostheer can not attack without vehicles (unless using doctrinal units).
Allies can.
Ostheer can not attack without vehicles (unless using doctrinal units).
Allies can.
16 May 2020, 13:34 PM
#3
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
P4 rush fuel cost: 285
M4 rush fuel cost: 285
What’s the issue here?
M4 rush fuel cost: 285
What’s the issue here?
16 May 2020, 13:42 PM
#4
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Because you spend fuel on light vehicles and side upgrades and opponent does not?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
16 May 2020, 14:44 PM
#5
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
P4 rush fuel cost: 285
M4 rush fuel cost: 285
What’s the issue here?
How do you find 285?
I found 245 for the fastest Pz4 rush and 265 for the fastest M4 rush.
edit: its 245 fuel.
16 May 2020, 14:51 PM
#6
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
How do you find 285?
I found 255 for the fastest Pz4 rush and 265 for the fastest M4 rush.
huh?
Ost T2 plus BP1 plus BP2 plus P4 = 285 fuel
USF T3 plus T4 plus M4 = 285 fuel
Only way you're getting 255 fuel for the P4 is if you get an Osttruppen doctrine supply drop and maybe 235 if you skip T2. But these are very specific tactics with huge drawbacks so there's really nothing to complain about.
16 May 2020, 15:09 PM
#7
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
huh?
Ost T2 plus BP1 plus BP2 plus P4 = 285 fuel
USF T3 plus T4 plus M4 = 285 fuel
Only way you're getting 255 fuel for the P4 is if you get an Osttruppen doctrine supply drop and maybe 235 if you skip T2. But these are very specific tactics with huge drawbacks so there's really nothing to complain about.
You should check your numbers.
Full tech Ostheer into Pz4 is only 275 fuel I don't know how you find 285 for a rush, USF 1 tier tech full upgrade is already 305 fuel.
The only way for USF to reach that 285 fuel you mention is to build only an ambulance with 1 full tier. Good luck fighting Pzgren without BARs.
16 May 2020, 15:20 PM
#8
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
You should check your numbers.
Full tech Ostheer into Pz4 is only 275 fuel I don't know how you find 285 for a rush, USF 1 tier tech full upgrade is already 305 fuel.
The only way for USF to reach that 285 fuel you mention is to build only an ambulance with 1 full tier. Good luck fighting Pzgren without BARs.
My numbers are just fine.
Ambulance is 10 fuel, as is the T1 Ostheer cost so it's likely they cancel eachother out. Even if they don't, the map control the ambulance gives with forward healing makes up for the fuel cost.
Grenade and rack are optional. I usually got weapon rack before the M4 and I got a lot of early map control which made up for the cost.
16 May 2020, 15:35 PM
#9
Posts: 3260
This direct comparisons always miss one small but very important detail: your fuel income is dependent on map control.
USF and OKW have aggressive early games, so their tech tends to be a bit more expensive to offset that.
USF and OKW have aggressive early games, so their tech tends to be a bit more expensive to offset that.
16 May 2020, 15:36 PM
#10
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
My numbers are just fine.
Ambulance is 10 fuel, as is the T1 Ostheer cost so it's likely they cancel eachother out. Even if they don't, the map control the ambulance gives with forward healing makes up for the fuel cost.
Grenade and rack are optional. I usually got weapon rack before the M4 and I got a lot of early map control which made up for the cost.
??
Please give me your numbers instead of a pointless argument about your skill.
16 May 2020, 15:39 PM
#11
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
??
Please give me your numbers instead of a pointless argument about your skill.
It's not arguments on skill, it's what Lago said about map control.
USF: T1/2 55F, T3 120F, M4A3 110F = 285F (295F w ambulance)
Ost: T2 20F, BP1 40F, BP2 105F, P4 120F = 285F (295 w Grens build)
16 May 2020, 15:42 PM
#12
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
This direct comparisons always miss one small but very important detail: your fuel income is dependent on map control.
USF and OKW have aggressive early games, so their tech tends to be a bit more expensive to offset that.
Ostheer's early game is also aggressive today, what your saying isn't true anymore.
16 May 2020, 15:46 PM
#13
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
It's not arguments on skill, it's what Lago said about map control.
USF: T1/2 55F, T3 120F, M4A3 110F = 285F (295F w ambulance)
Ost: T2 20F, BP1 40F, BP2 105F, P4 120F = 285F (295 w Grens build)
You're forgetting the starting fuel. Wouldn't be a problem if OKW weren't starting the game with 10 fuel less.
16 May 2020, 16:01 PM
#14
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
You're forgetting the starting fuel. Wouldn't be a problem if OKW weren't starting the game with 10 fuel less.
It's not a problem, usf and ost both start with 20 fuel and ost needs to build T1 to even build mainlines if they don't pick a doctrine.
OKW isn't meta so not sure why you'd complain about them.
16 May 2020, 16:02 PM
#15
Posts: 1515
I'm not going to go into the fuel argument. It's pure numbers so it's directly comparable and debates are pointless. There are currently no factions that do not have a good early game. OST has ostruppen/granadiers/MGs/assaultgrens etc.
US has strong infanty with w.rack
Soviets can spam whatevs
OKW dominates early on smaller maps, close quarters maps
UKF also has good infantry and MGs with benefits in encampements and cover. The "strong early game" argumet is being less and less valid, especially if you include doctrines into the equation.
If you really want to counter early axis mediums, get one ranger squad, equip 3 zooks and make them run behind your infantry. The enemy will usually try to get in to kill your squads, snare it and let rangers to their work (or snare + AT):
1 rant from yesterdays game. I threw 13 snares in one game to a Panther, 0 of them snared. What is the snare chance from US infantry on Panther? Does anyone know?
US has strong infanty with w.rack
Soviets can spam whatevs
OKW dominates early on smaller maps, close quarters maps
UKF also has good infantry and MGs with benefits in encampements and cover. The "strong early game" argumet is being less and less valid, especially if you include doctrines into the equation.
If you really want to counter early axis mediums, get one ranger squad, equip 3 zooks and make them run behind your infantry. The enemy will usually try to get in to kill your squads, snare it and let rangers to their work (or snare + AT):
1 rant from yesterdays game. I threw 13 snares in one game to a Panther, 0 of them snared. What is the snare chance from US infantry on Panther? Does anyone know?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
16 May 2020, 16:06 PM
#16
Posts: 682
I'm not going to go into the fuel argument. It's pure numbers so it's directly comparable and debates are pointless. There are currently no factions that do not have a good early game. OST has ostruppen/granadiers/MGs/assaultgrens etc.
US has strong infanty with w.rack
Soviets can spam whatevs
OKW dominates early on smaller maps, close quarters maps
UKF also has good infantry and MGs with benefits in encampements and cover. The "strong early game" argumet is being less and less valid, especially if you include doctrines into the equation.
If you really want to counter early axis mediums, get one ranger squad, equip 3 zooks and make them run behind your infantry. The enemy will usually try to get in to kill your squads, snare it and let rangers to their work (or snare + AT):
1 rant from yesterdays game. I threw 13 snares in one game to a Panther, 0 of them snared. What is the snare chance from US infantry on Panther? Does anyone know?
Snares will only activate if they bring the hp of their target below 75%
/s
16 May 2020, 16:34 PM
#17
Posts: 1515
Snares will only activate if they bring the hp of their target below 75%
So many hours in and didn't know that. Thanks! So bounces don't snare and snares hitting above 75% don't snare. Good to know.
However, I do know that I manage to snare full HP Panzer 4s. A snare hit on P4 full health will snare it 80% of the time (the damage will leave it at 540 hp which is about 85% if I'm not wrong).
Is there an explanation for that?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
16 May 2020, 16:38 PM
#18
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I'm not going to go into the fuel argument. It's pure numbers so it's directly comparable and debates are pointless. There are currently no factions that do not have a good early game. OST has ostruppen/granadiers/MGs/assaultgrens etc.
US has strong infanty with w.rack
Soviets can spam whatevs
OKW dominates early on smaller maps, close quarters maps
UKF also has good infantry and MGs with benefits in encampements and cover. The "strong early game" argumet is being less and less valid, especially if you include doctrines into the equation.
If you really want to counter early axis mediums, get one ranger squad, equip 3 zooks and make them run behind your infantry. The enemy will usually try to get in to kill your squads, snare it and let rangers to their work (or snare + AT):
1 rant from yesterdays game. I threw 13 snares in one game to a Panther, 0 of them snared. What is the snare chance from US infantry on Panther? Does anyone know?
You're a bit off topic.
As USF you must outplay your opponent to get around 30 fuel more in 12 minutes in order to get your sherman at the same time as his Pz4.
16 May 2020, 16:42 PM
#19
Posts: 4474
>full tech medium
>does not count the new tier 4 buff but counts boolster and weapon upgardes
>does not count the new tier 4 buff but counts boolster and weapon upgardes
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
16 May 2020, 17:33 PM
#20
Posts: 682
So many hours in and didn't know that. Thanks! So bounces don't snare and snares hitting above 75% don't snare. Good to know.
However, I do know that I manage to snare full HP Panzer 4s. A snare hit on P4 full health will snare it 80% of the time (the damage will leave it at 540 hp which is about 85% if I'm not wrong).
Is there an explanation for that?
It shouldn't. One snare on a full health 640 won't cause engine damage but two absolutely will (100% chance) unless it took a bazooka shot and was a little low already.
Same mechanic works for satchel charge snares, ie a satchel won't cause engine damage on a full health kt/ace/jt/ele by itself.
It's pretty cut and dry - the same as main weapon crit only activating @ damage that happens @ 25% (and under) and each subsequent damaging shot under 25%.
/s
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