Isn´t maxim aoe suppression

I see There is a big issue around early game and peak performance. It might be that maxims vet1 ability makes them a better itself, but at least on the case of SU design, vet0 abilities are those that give versatility to the team weapon rather performance, see zis gun, pm41 abilities. Doc units have a different approach but there's still some of this, dshk hmg with pierce rounds intended for lvs and the smaller atg with canister rounds (even though these got nerf hammered)

I'm just pointing that out, nothing else

It is totally usable. Usable, not great. I would rather have a 4 man maxim than a vickers. It is still worth stealing the maxim obviously, it's just mediocre instead of being great. Soviets are paying the 260 manpower for the maxim to get a great team weapon. Enemies steal it for free and get a mediocre team weapon. Changes to performance are unnecessary.

Also to be fair, it's a gun from the 1880s being compared to weapons from the 1930s.

I disagree. Due to the deathloop and poor vet 0 performance I feel it's a liability more than a boon to man a maxim as axis. Fewer models means less targets for the enemy to shoot at which means more likely to deal critical damage to the gunner and then its a wash.
The Maxim is simply not good in the hands of anyone but the soviet because it doesn't have the boons the soviet have to keep in operating to actually get that much needed vet. I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here, just make sustained fire vet 0 and say 20-30 mu and cut its price in down like now with vet 1. That prevents over use early game but makes it usable if recrewed. Basic functionality shouldn't be locked behind vet.

I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here, just make sustained fire vet 0 and say 20-30 mu and cut its price in down like now with vet 1. That prevents over use early game but makes it usable if recrewed. Basic functionality shouldn't be locked behind vet.

Yeah this would go a long way without buffing it through the roof. Really solid change

The maxim is quite mediocre at vet 0.
Its ability to do its job properly is behind vet and muni.
Its survivabiliy is overrated, its less then other mg,s despite bigger crew. Because of the deathloop and lower supression.

Mg42 wich is a lot better is quicker to get as its t0. Grens are cheaper to get fully kitted out then cons.

What needs to happen if its to remain meh at vet 0 price it accordingly, dropt it 240 mp to better reflect it preformance. Or if it remains 260 mp make sustained fire vet 0 with price increase to 30 muni and cheaper at vet1.

Either the maxim is to expensive or the mg42 is to cheap. How these both cost 260 mp is beyond me. To me the former is the obvious thruth.

Vet0 buff to maxims is itself a buff through the roof. It's like buffing ost mortars vet ability to vet0, simply because you don't want the unit peak performance to be unlocked so early and easily.

Vet0 maxim is bad COMPARED to other HMGs at SUPPRESSING but as a logical statements, it says nothing about wether maxim is able to suppress (it can) and it says nothing about the faction design (versatility over excellence) so maxims in the end perform as intended. It is intended that no other faction can get them to work as well as SU (that's a positive perk) and more so sU handles team weapons better than any other faction (they just can't build them) the same happened with conscripts and lmg42.

Other than that and a desperate wish to defile factions designs, I find no reason to vet0 ability maxims, that is my though about it.

Vet0 buff to maxims is itself a buff through the roof. It's like buffing ost mortars vet ability to vet0, simply because you don't want the unit peak performance to be unlocked so early and easily.

Vet0 maxim is bad COMPARED to other HMGs at SUPPRESSING but as a logical statements, it says nothing about wether maxim is able to suppress (it can) and it says nothing about the faction design (versatility over excellence) so maxims in the end perform as intended. It is intended that no other faction can get them to work as well as SU (that's a positive perk) and more so sU handles team weapons better than any other faction (they just can't build them) the same happened with conscripts and lmg42.

Other than that and a desperate wish to defile factions designs, I find no reason to vet0 ability maxims, that is my though about it.

And your thoughts about its cost. Does its cost properly reflect its performance?

Stealing a maxim is axis is not worse than using it as soviets.

The reasons maxims are bad is that the suppression is lackluster and the cone is small. It's super easy to flank and grenade the maxim (you don't even really need to actually flank. Just spacing your units and attacking from the front is enough), especially as Ostheer with Rifle nades and nuke-bundle nades. Once you hit a grenade, most crew would be dead and the rest will have low health so you can trigger the deathloop. Soviets however don't have non-doctrinal grenades, so you are very unlikely to lose your stolen maxim. Due to Oorah and the shitty supression you still won't get too much value out of it of course - but not any less value than you can get out of it as soviets.

TBH, i'm not sure it would change any much the current meta if Maxims were to be given the vet 1 ability at vet 0 with an increased munition cost.

I don't think we saw any relevant use of Maxim spam during the tournament. Out of 50 games, in the opening, Maxims saw only once as part of a 3 Con opening and twice as a pseudo maxim spam on some weird troll game (CE Maxim x2 Medics Guards and the other one been CE Maxim x3 Partisans).

I don't remember people opening with Maxims in the recent CoHrona cup neither.

At 3:30 you get around 60 muni and most people would opt to go for a flamer. At that point, depending on map resources and control you get around 30/40 muni per min on a 50/50 split.

I know it sounds scary buff and maxims in the same sentence, but anything that discourages spam and A move is welcomed in my book.
I would say i'm optimist at least, due to this:

Forces a reload at the beginning of the ability.
Ability disengages when the unit is told to move

The ability is good, but it's not AP rounds/IR good. It doesn't give Maxims another role (killing light or chipping down pseudo medium vehicles), it just makes it perform as other MG should be.

Other than that and a desperate wish to defile factions designs, I find no reason to vet0 ability maxims, that is my though about it.

If anything, atm, it would be in line with their current design. Check vet 0 flare mortar, vet 0 artillery barrage Zis gun.



NOTE: i don't think Soviets need atm a maxim buff but i don't see the harm in trying something like 30 muni vet 0 and vet 1 reducing the cost on the ability to it's current price.

At the moment i don't see many people using it cause u need to use it preferably BEFORE units get into the arc.

What needs to happen if its to remain meh at vet 0 price it accordingly, dropt it 240 mp to better reflect it preformance. Or if it remains 260 mp make sustained fire vet 0 with price increase to 30 muni and cheaper at vet1.

Either the maxim is to expensive or the mg42 is to cheap. How these both cost 260 mp is beyond me. To me the former is the obvious thruth.

Yeah I agree with all of this exactly. But I think you can leave the mg42 as is if the Maxim got that change

The ability still forces a reload. Its not like we're just making the Maxim have that performance as standard fire

Make sustained fire more expensive and could even increase it's cooldown a little if necessary, to prevent spam. There are plenty of ways to make this change work without breaking the Maxim

Yeah I agree with all of this exactly. But I think you can leave the mg42 as is if the Maxim got that change

The ability still forces a reload. Its not like we're just making the Maxim have that performance as standard fire

Make sustained fire more expensive and could even increase it's cooldown a little if necessary, to prevent spam. There are plenty of ways to make this change work without breaking the Maxim

I only intended to show how odd it is both cost 260 mp while one (the maxim) nowhere near as effevtive without a vet ability costing muni.

But i do agree that the cooldown probably needs adjusting if it becomes vet 0.

And looking at the faction. Zis mortar su76 t34 have vet 0 abilities to help them early on overcoming low preformance or scaling without being op. So vet0 sustained fire fits the faction nicely.

6 man weapon teams .. gg

deathloop instead of magically teleporting HMG, gg

And your thoughts about its cost. Does its cost properly reflect its performance?

Well, IMO the cost is not a reflection of performance only. Like real economics, costs have a lot of intended and unintended consquences. In order to keep my density at a minimun i will lay down a list of " worthy units stats™ " that are simple yet coherent aspects of the unit, relative to other similar units. They are all based on my experience but include the forums overall view (hopefully).
5 points mean ideal - 1 its awful.

Tech tree: 4/5 {Mg42 and vickers are 5 because its T0} (T2 cons build is viable now)
Damage Output: 3/5 {Vickers is 5, .50 cal is 4}
Time to suppress: 3/5 at vet0 (Vet1 enhances it, its the thread OP) {Mg42 is 5}
Firing arc: 3/5 (There are worse, but its bad anyways, very focalized)
survivability vs inf: 2/5 (i cant put it 1 because of 6 man crews, but yes, deathloop)
survivability vs AoE: 6/6 (6 man crews)
garrisoned power: 4/5 (can fight off Mg42s in garrison) {vickers is 5}
set up/tear down time: 3/5 {mg42 is 2}

*BONUS PERKS (only for SU maxims)
-Can have conscripts merge to it to avoid reposition it (its situational, but its there)
-Only SU can make it worth at vet0 (other factions are reluctant to steal it)

*CONSIDERABLE CONS
-Its literally the worst HMG SU can have. (But Dshka and stealing is still an option)
-Deathloop (it is really an offensive overflow, other factions cheat having teleportin MG)


Final veredict. If you only pay for suppression its a bad HMG. SU faction perk its the true positive side of maxim. But at least you can have maxims in a reasonably early time. USF cant have this luxury and thir HMG is 4 man. OST relies on 251 to keep HMGs and TW online. it is a FU dependent solution, merge is underrated and costs MP + micro, M5 can do as 251 if needed. Maxims are relatively as pricey as Mg42 but trades better and can survive longer if managed well. Merge is underrated but also clunky AF, could use some love.
It is not a lategame HMG though, but SU have other units cover that area very well, from DshKa to rocket arty.

And looking at the faction. Zis mortar su76 t34 have vet 0 abilities to help them early on overcoming low preformance or scaling without being op. So vet0 sustained fire fits the faction nicely.

Yup fits in with the rest of the support tier. A lot of reasons making this a good change

It is totally usable. Usable, not great. I would rather have a 4 man maxim than a vickers. It is still worth stealing the maxim obviously, it's just mediocre instead of being great. Soviets are paying the 260 manpower for the maxim to get a great team weapon. Enemies steal it for free and get a mediocre team weapon. Changes to performance are unnecessary.

Also to be fair, it's a gun from the 1880s being compared to weapons from the 1930s.

Finally someone who has as low an opinion of the vickers as I do

Finally someone who has as low an opinion of the vickers as I do

The Vickers is good inside a building with Vet 1....outside of a building its trash.

I find the vickers to be a pretty good steal actually as axis. You already have amazingly good suppression mgs, the Vicky gives you something with more teeth. The Maxim you aren't getting suppression or damage and you get a nice bonus of deathloop to round out the whole steaming pile of turds. What's more, as ost anyways, you can throw up a bunker and get great value from the Vicky if you don't feel like microing it.

Well, IMO the cost is not a reflection of performance only. Like real economics, costs have a lot of intended and unintended consquences. In order to keep my density at a minimun i will lay down a list of " worthy units stats™ " that are simple yet coherent aspects of the unit, relative to other similar units. They are all based on my experience but include the forums overall view (hopefully).
5 points mean ideal - 1 its awful.

Tech tree: 4/5 {Mg42 and vickers are 5 because its T0} (T1 cons build is viable now)
Damage Output: 3/5 {Vickers is 5, .50 cal is 4}
Time to suppress: 3/5 at vet0 (Vet1 enhances it, its the thread OP) {Mg42 is 5}
Firing arc: 3/5 (There are worse, but its bad anyways, very focalized)
survivability vs inf: 2/5 (i cant put it 1 because of 6 man crews, but yes, deathloop)
survivability vs AoE: 6/6 (6 man crews)
garrisoned power: 4/5 (can fight off Mg42s in garrison) {vickers is 5}
set up/tear down time: 3/5 {mg42 is 2}

*BONUS PERKS (only for SU maxims)
-Can have conscripts merge to it to avoid reposition it (its situational, but its there)
-Only SU can make it worth at vet0 (other factions are reluctant to steal it)

*CONSIDERABLE CONS
-Its literally the worst HMG SU can have. (But Dshka and stealing is still an option)
-Deathloop (it is really an offensive overflow, other factions cheat having teleportin MG)


Final veredict. If you only pay for suppression its a bad HMG. SU faction perk its the true positive side of maxim. But at least you can have maxims in a reasonably early time. USF cant have this luxury and thir HMG is 4 man. OST relies on 251 to keep HMGs and TW online. it is a FU dependent solution, merge is underrated and costs MP + micro, M5 can do as 251 if needed. Maxims are relatively as pricey as Mg42 but trades better and can survive longer if managed well. Merge is underrated but also clunky AF, could use some love.
It is not a lategame HMG though, but SU have other units cover that area very well, from DshKa to rocket arty.

I agree on most points really clear and thought out. But do not fully agree on aoe survivability. It gets naded and wiped more often then 4 men mg,s. The deathloop and mediocre supression without vet and the ability are the cause. Clearly soviet faction perks dont compensate this. The most survivable mg gets wiped the most...

Some stats such as suprresion or damage matter more then hp or setup. Having good supression means taking far less damage from inf then the other way around.
Not saying maxim should get mg42 suprresion, we know how that turned out while keeping its hp and mobility. Its just it should not be able to get naded frontaly as frequently as it does, the deathloop triggers pretty easely after this.

I agree on most points really clear and thought out. But do not fully agree on aoe survivability. It gets naded and wiped more often then 4 men mg,s. The deathloop and mediocre supression without vet and the ability are the cause. Clearly soviet faction perks dont compensate this. The most survivable mg gets wiped the most...

Some stats such as suprresion or damage matter more then hp or setup. Having good supression means taking far less damage from inf then the other way around.
Not saying maxim should get mg42 suprresion, we know how that turned out while keeping its hp and mobility. Its just it should not be able to get naded frontaly as frequently as it does, the deathloop triggers pretty easely after this.

Agreed, i meme´d a little on the AoE survival but its also true that maxims are the best among other HMGs at surviving mortar shells, of course they still suffer splash damage but they have more models to spare.
Axis pgren nades are mini nukes and riflenade has big AoE, as you pointed out it often causes maxim wipes.

I think maxims is a more niche HMG that fails at being a core unit for SU. I think that its intentional that maxims dont perform so well so SU player try to steal axis or recover allied HMGs because that puts them on top of the food chain.

Flamenade Dot could be decreased to disencourage deathloop, or simply changed by a normal grenade.
The deathloop also happens to all other HMGs when outnumbered. But on maxims as you said, its an exploitable bug.

The Vickers is good inside a building with Vet 1....outside of a building its trash.

Well yeah turns out MG with range bigger than a sniper in a building is kind of oppressive, even if its suppression is garbage. Any vickers rework/buff should come with a removal of its current vet1 for sure.

I think a price reduction to 250 ala MG34 is fair. I also think the vet one ability shouldn't force a reload. The force reload on incendiary rounds makes sense as it is literally firing a different type of ammo. On the Maxim it just feels like having to load a fresh mag on the AR15 rather than changing a selector from burst to full auto.