Pioneers after early game

So usf and ukf spending recourses unlocking just the racks to able able to put upgrades at about 80 to 90 muni to put double upgrades on their engineers, dont add up to their cost? Ukf lacking cqc entirely outside sappers and them not being in t0 does not allow them to have good dps at closer ranges?

Cons have more utility far more utility then grens. And they do cost more then grens to get them fully kitted out. People tend to forget cons need a squads worth of mp and fuel to unlock a crappy nade and snare just for them and not gives extra units.
Even the weaker maxim is more expensive then the mg42 considering you need to tech to it.

You play all faction you say? Then why leave out addional costs like these? Must an primarely axis player me thinks. And yes i primarely play allies but i at least try to be as objectivly as i possibly can.

I though we have explained tech cost once and for all. If one want to add the cost of molotovs and AT grenades to conscripts one also has to add the cost of T1 and BP to Grenadier because with out they do not have their full kit.

Now can we go back to simply issue that Pioneers gain veterancy very hard especially in late game?

Regret you weren't here, when axis bois kept screaming HMG42 was bad, because when soviets stole it, it was impossible to counter during first 6 months after release.

achpawel can't even refute arguments anymore, he just repeats the same things for last 5 pages and if someone completely shoots down his argument, he just repeats it more times.

That's not even stubbornness anymore, that's plain denial of reality.

I went through the thread. Some people really do believe their brain is a God's gift to the world. It's not new to be biased...we all are to some extent but some of the arguments here.... My God... It's like that

Basically this thread is this meme one reply after another.

I though we have explained tech cost once and for all. If one want to add the cost of molotovs and AT grenades to conscripts one also has to add the cost of T1 and BP to Grenadier because with out they do not have their full kit.

Now can we go back to simply issue that Pioneers gain veterancy very hard especially in late game?

It cost nothing, its just a timed unlock.

It cost nothing, its just a timed unlock.

Right because you can have LMG for grenadier with paying for anything...wait no you can not.

Do you not understand that standard tech is exclusively a function of TIMING, unless you have some rank 8000 meta no tech at all build order?

Do you not understand that cost that isn't directly bound to tech is an additional side cost that bloats units value and is divided by the number of units benefiting from the upgrade?

Yes, you have choice when you want to invest, no, linear tech cost is NOT the same thing regarding value, its in the name - side cost aka something additional to regular tech.

I'll get crayons and we'll try again if you still struggle to get it.

If you don't build a single gren are you going to get BP1? If you don't build a single con are you going to get molitovs OR AT nades? One is an inflation of a unit cost, the other is business as usual. Grens upgrades are delayed by time via tech, cons are optional and additional costs. Even the 7th man illustrates this difference. You either unlock it at t4 (for free) or you pay EXTRA to unlock it without tech. I don't include that in the additional price of cons kit because it CAN be unlocked for free and is thus not exclusively a costed unlock that inflates the price of cons, however should we collectively decide that tech costs are in fact additional costs for the unit we may find that by that metric conscripts should Lilley be performing like 6 man pre nerf obers with 3 lmg34s and possibly a 45mm cannon, since we have literally hundreds of manpower and fuel now suddenly attached to the singular units cost.

...Even the 7th man illustrates this difference. You either unlock it at t4 (for free) or you pay EXTRA to unlock it without tech...

One can think as everything that comes with investing in tech/buildings as "free" but then and all faction get free staff or everything that comes with tech/building incorporated in the cost of that tech/building.

Since the game generally offer a discount for bundled things, many of things comes cheaper or some one else might claim the ones pay extra for the option to, if and when he wants to unlock something.

The rest is simply "smoke and mirror" from specific users in an attempt to create an imaginary "advantage" of the axis factions have because some things come bundled with tech/buildings.

Then explain us how a full Ostheer tech cost 210 fuel (minus 20) 190 and a full USF tech cost 230 fuel (minus 20) 210 and on top of that you still have to pay 2x15 fuel to get BARs/Zooks and grenades.

Sounds to me that Ostheer's unit upgrades are free to unlock.

Then explain us how a full Ostheer tech cost 210 fuel (minus 20) 190 and a full USF tech cost 230 fuel (minus 20) 210 and on top of that you still have to pay 2x15 fuel to get BARs/Zooks and grenades.

Sounds to me that Ostheer's unit upgrades are free to unlock.

And it seem to me that USF officers, production boost, "on me", bazooka weapon, BAR weapon, recon flight, forward retreat point, barrage are also "free".

One can think as everything that comes with investing in tech/buildings as "free" but then and all faction get free staff or everything that comes with tech/building incorporated in the cost of that tech/building.

Since the game generally offer a discount for bundled things, many of things comes cheaper or some one else might claim the ones pay extra for the option to, if and when he wants to unlock something.

The rest is simply "smoke and mirror" from specific users in an attempt to create an imaginary "advantage" of the axis factions have because some things come bundled with tech/buildings.

Yes, all factions do get free stuff and some also pay for others. Like soviet do specifically for the con upgrades.
Things unlocked via teching armt extra costs, they are delayed in their timing. You could look at obers for an example of this. They sued to come from schwere and could buy their lmg, now they come from part 1 of the schwere and part 2 unlocks the LMG. The LMG isn't more expensive now, nor are obers cheaper, all that changed was timing. If something was attached to ukf bofors/AEC tech I'd argue that that is an extra, but the second arty piece in the tank tier is free and gated by time. Grens lmg is free with tech (well I mean... You pay munitions for it but you know what I mean) so is 7th man for cons, though you can pay extra to get it sooner. Rifle nade for grens is free, molotov is not. Faust is very much free, at nade is very much not.

You can't really attach a cost to units held back only by tech because they don't have a fixed value nor a fixed price. Volks stgs don't change in price depending on if you went med or mech. Their power level doesn't fluctuate. You don't think "damn it! I paid an extra 20 fuel to unlock these by going mech! Why don't they work better!" because they are free, when you tech up. However you chose to do that is up to you.

This is why, imo ost is the best faction as a baseline for balance as well as (in theory) the easiest TO balance. They have many steps to teching that provide a multi faced approach to finding the right timing for everything. In the enemd you don't pay more or less for a unit/ ability if it comes with teching. It just comes sooner or later based on where in the teching it's unlocked.

1. Not a different conversation. Especially that people against making pios more competitive or cheaper keep suggesting they do more and thus should be more expensive than CEs. The same people don't see that echelons and sappers can be much more deadly lategame and cost as much as pios. Mainline infantry, especially conscripts, often have more abilities and it is not always/almost never reflected in the price.

Yes it's a different conversation, I just explained why. Balancing mainline infantry is not the same as engineers

And yes it is absolutely reflected in the price. You have unlock costs for their weapon racks, the costs of the weapons themselves, bolster cost... Their better combat potential doesn't just fall out of the sky

The rest is simply "smoke and mirror" from specific users in an attempt to create an imaginary "advantage" of the axis factions have because some things come bundled with tech/buildings.

That supposed to mean something? For someone who gets annoyed about people making things personal you seem to have no problem doing it yourself

I have been bringing it up exclusively within the context of comparing the squads they effect, not the entire factions. It has nothing to do with making up "imaginary advantages" for one side or the other

...

I am not disagreeing with you, my point is that one can not cherry pick what he considers "free".

I am also simply point out that the claim that Ostheer get "free" so they have a tech advantage is simply wrong.

As you can clearly see there still people who keep repeating this stupid, false argument again and again even in threads that are totally of topic.