Pioneers after early game

While they continue to have an amazing sight range, they have little opportunity in the mid and late game to gain veterancy, especially with minesweeper upgrade.

In comparison:
-Rear echelons can get weapons from stashes and may use fighting positions to great effect.
-Royal engineers can also get weapons from stashes, have at capability by default and may upgrade for vickers lmg.
-Sturmpios need no explanation.
-Combat engineers have rifles which allows them to safely give fire support from a distance.

Pios are stuck with their mp40s and unless they get a flamer or pick up a dropped weapon they are barely usable effectively in combat right after the early game which would allow them to vet up.
Imo they could use an upgrade that is not exclusive with the minesweepers, such as:
-Non doctrinal 5th man upgrade, this should also help with ostheer's difficulty of recrewing team weapons.
-A sidetech at BP 2 or 3 that replaces two of their smgs with stgs.
-The minesweeper upgrade also grants them one or two panzerbüchses (for increased muni price, ofc).
-Or just simply allow pios to gain shared veterancy.

Remove the 5th man upgrade from German Infantry and add it to T4 stock.

Glances at combat engines who don't even have the increased sight...

Pios are fine. Gotta remeber that ost was designed when choosing your units mattered. Not every unit could be an AT squad or have their DPS concentrated onto a couple of models.
At any rate being able to increase the LOS on any and every team weapon you recrew is a great bonus, something other factions have to pay more for and select certain doctrines for. It's a 200mp engineer unit. You seem to want too much from them.

Pios AND CEs should just get some received accuracy bonus with vet. They currently get none, and pios especially would benefit since they have smgs

Remove the 5th man upgrade from German Infantry and add it to T4 stock.

This.

If you give pioneers an extra man and don't change anything else, it mostly just makes them better at repairing and recrewing team weapons without giving them any ability to earn veterancy.

Pios AND CEs should just get some received accuracy bonus with vet. They currently get none, and pios especially would benefit since they have smgs

I’d rather see some more useful vet, like putting away the sweeper at vet 3. Straight up combat buffs would just encourage engineer spam.

I’d rather see some more useful vet, like putting away the sweeper at vet 3. Straight up combat buffs would just encourage engineer spam.

Possibly, but if it were something like -10% or -15% at vet 2 or 3 i don't think that would change much about their spammability

I don't think putting a way the sweeper at vet 3 would be super useful. Hard to get an engineer squad to vet 3 in the first place without a flamer, even harder if they have a sweeper

Pios AND CEs should just get some received accuracy bonus with vet. They currently get none, and pios especially would benefit since they have smgs

I doubt that this solves it. The early game pios would be fine because they already got the veterancy. Late game pios still have no chance. Conscripts had similar problems before their buff: A vet3 Conscript from the early game was alright, but if you lost them they had no chance of vetting up again and just got shredded.

I see a similar issue with combat engineers, they just do not vet enough.

Best solution would still be if mine sweeping would give XP. That way especially sweeper squads would be able to vet up. Or just give a small amount of shared veterancy for pioneer units with a sweeper.

Pios AND CEs should just get some received accuracy bonus with vet. They currently get none, and pios especially would benefit since they have smgs

I think limiting engineering squads to either a Flamethrower or Minesweeper is just an outdated concept.

I'd rather see the Flamethrower just count as a weapon slot and not disable clearance packages. It would make Engineers more combat effective without having to worry about balancing vet changes.

If you can get both the flamer and sweeper, it makes the flamer much closer to a no-brainer choice. Right now, getting the flamer puts you in debt because you're going to need another squad to sweep mines sooner or later.

If you can get both the flamer and sweeper, it makes the flamer much closer to a no-brainer choice. Right now, getting the flamer puts you in debt because you're going to need another squad to sweep mines sooner or later.

...And?

Both of those factions want multiple engineers mid-late game anyway. All this change would do is make them slightly more effective in combat.

...And?

Both of those factions want multiple engineers mid-late game anyway. All this change would do is make them slightly more effective in combat.

Both those factions are not meant to use their engineers as front line units. Both those factions are supposed to be using those engineers to do engineering. Choices used to be a thing. Stop trying to make no brainer "just sink resources into units and they can do anything" style designs a thing. We need to move away from that not towards it.

If you are looking for combat unit with MP40, pios are not it, nor should they be.

I doubt that this solves it. The early game pios would be fine because they already got the veterancy. Late game pios still have no chance. Conscripts had similar problems before their buff: A vet3 Conscript from the early game was alright, but if you lost them they had no chance of vetting up again and just got shredded

But replacing lost mainlines is completely different from replacing engineers. If you're issue is that you lost your pioneers and the new ones you built aren't holding up in combat, I mean, that's tough. They aren't supposed to, and my received accuracy suggestion is only meant to help them a little

Biggest reason to want vetted engineers is the repair bonus at vet 2, and they already added a repair speed bonus to the sweeper

Best solution would still be if mine sweeping would give XP. That way especially sweeper squads would be able to vet up. Or just give a small amount of shared veterancy for pioneer units with a sweeper.

I have said this for years, they should also get XP from kills/damage they do with planted mines. It seems the modteam doesn't want this or its not possible because its never made it to a patch

Both those factions are not meant to use their engineers as front line units.

And you still wouldn't. Flamethrower Engineers aren't dominating games now, and allowing them to upgrade to retain some relevance in the late game isn't going to change that. Its just a way to make them slightly more useful when forced into combat, which is the entire point of this thread.

Choices used to be a thing. Stop trying to make no brainer "just sink resources into units and they can do anything" style designs a thing. We need to move away from that not towards it.

Thats funny given that the Minesweeper upgrade is clearly the no brainer option right now. So tell me, should we split the repair speed buff into its own upgrade to force choices?

Give the option to put away minesweeper for all sweeper units

Flamer exists.

Also increased sight, and they still kind of trade with even stock rifles and penals at close range for some reason.

Consider this: Add doctrinal G43s to pioneers, but only in bad doctrines. And the G43s are weak, like Ostruppen LMGs. And you can't get them before building T3/T4.

Consider this: Add doctrinal G43s to pioneers, but only in bad doctrines. And the G43s are weak, like Ostruppen LMGs. And you can't get them before building T3/T4.

There needs to be at least "some" fidelity regarding real history. Pioneers did not have a role that required G43s.