Changes i feel grens need

So this is going to be a relativly simple thread, and one i think is actually needed.
Buff grens, so there's alot of reason for this but mainly is that they are just not that good for what you pay for in reinforcement but also for timing, scaling and general viablity

For one there's is no actual good reason to get them over assgrens or ostruppen, aside from the fact that you get can get sniper vs brits (which is the only real reason to build t1 anyway)

So let's look at the what they're meant to be good at
'Long range' let's begin with this, they're meant to be trading at longer ranges, but what happens when you're on a small map? you begin losing engagements before they're even begun, this doesn't help when you're paying *30* manpower per model, every other squad pays something like 24 to 28 or so, it's absurdly expensive and they're trading capabilties just aren't that good, i'm going to be a bit general here, but if you're up against a rifle squad you need to drop 3 of his to come out on top or even four in terms of trade, while he only has to drop 3 to already force you to pay 90 manpower, this makes tradings very uneven and generally favor the otherside,

They're awful at close range, they require upgrades to compete with any other mainline and their scaling is mediocre, sure they get more durability, but that doesn't matter when shermans using HE or t70s roll up on you, you're still going to get sent to hell faster than you can say goodbye.

That and they have no real place in the early game, their competitors (assgrens or ostruppen) quite frankly just do their jobs better, ostruppen will trade well because of their manpower bleed being minimal, assgrens field alot of pressure and momentum for you while allowing you to go into light vehicles early, compared to this what does the green offer? Bleed and faust, sure it's a good faust, but even then once the ostruppen get their this becomes a nullpoint.
It becomes a lose-lose situation because you get worse infantry that doesn't trade well, bleeds you and makes your light vehicle timings worse. I should add this is purely from a 1v1 POV, as i don't really play teamgames that much.

I also feel like the buffs that were given are kind of irrelevant, the t4 buff is quite frankly useless, 10% more cap speed and 2 less mp sounds nice, but in reality it ends up having a borderline minimal impact because you wont actually see the benefits for that long, the vet 3 durability however i will admit is solid enough to give them some good lategame, but nothing compared to its foes scaling, Rifles can get double bars, cons 7men, sections beat them at most ranges and can get double bren if need be, and penals have decent enough durability.

My proposal would be to lower the reinforcement cost to 26, increase their cost slightly while decreasing the mp cost of t1 slightly, to compensate for this i'd increase the cost of grens to 260, buff their mid to close range so they don't have to retreat the moment you get close

I feel like this would be good start to making grens properly viable.

As a 3vs3 RT player I can say that the need of a reliable mainline infantry is more needed than ever, considering that the two main other option are Ostruppen and Assgrens.

Both Ostruppen commanders doesn't offer Heavy tank option and both Assgrens commander rely on tiger which got nerfed.
Giving up those 2 mainline infantry due to late game limitation without reliable heavies is quite critical in 3vs3 ( 4vs4 aswell i guess)

Making grens more viable would at least open more possibility in the 3vs3 "meta" in term of commander. (probably even more in 1vs1).

I would recommend to split part of the vet 3 survability among all the 3 vets like Pzgrens.

Let's look at Grenadier matchups.

Vs Cons they do more than fine. When Cons get 7man and get behind cover, less so. When Cons get SVTs, much less so. When Grens get LMGs they do fine.

Vs Riflemen they get memed until they get LMGs then they can bleed them from afar.

Vs Sections they lose early hard, win after LMG and imo lose once 5man sections get Brens.

Overall I don't think they're bad, the main issue with Grenadiers is munitions. Yes the lmg42 and rifle grenades are very strong, but that's a shitload of munis. Don't forget you also need munitions for mines, medic bunker, fausts (have fun with them missing) and s mines.

Here's how you fix Grens for good: Nerf sandbags of other mainlines and give them the 28 reinforce cost early instead of T4. Then nerf LMG42s and put their cost down to 45 munitions.

It's more Allied mainline infantry being OP than Grens being bad. Riflemen buff was not really needed. Infantry Sections weren't op before the last patch which made UKF struggle but it would have been a better idea to help UKF in a different way and not bring back Tommy blobs which ruined almost all of my recent Axis 2v2s. I am not sure if UKF is really OP but it's just braindead to play against and completely unfun because people just insist to abuse to the maximum.

Just like Grenadiers Volksgrenadiers lose to EVERY single Allied mainline infantry there is.

Volks do well in the early game against USF because they (usually) get STGs faster than Riflemen can get Bars and have a Vet 1 RA boost while Riflemen only get the AT-nade as vet 1 bonus. Once Riflemen hit vet 2 and have two bars Volksgrenadiers lose every engagement.

Volks also do well against Conscripts after getting the STG upgrade but don't scale nearly as good as 7 Man Cons. They also lose to SVT Cons hard at any point of the game. Penals stomp them unless you can force the opponent to upgrade to PTRS.

Not even speaking about Infantry Sections here because they just walk all over Volks on open maps and are only somewhat decent when you can make use of shot blockers.

So this is going to be a relativly simple thread, and one i think is actually needed.
Buff grens, so there's alot of reason for this but mainly is that they are just not that good for what you pay for in reinforcement but also for timing, scaling and general viablity
....

That only leads to power creep. It is high time to start nerfing the other faction instead.

My proposal would be to lower the reinforcement cost to 26, increase their cost slightly while decreasing the mp cost of t1 slightly, to compensate for this i'd increase the cost of grens to 260, buff their mid to close range so they don't have to retreat the moment you get close

This is a working solution and I agree with the whole post. The only issue I see with it is that buffing the close-mid range isn't quite in line with the theme and overlaps with the assgrens. I would rather see their long range kar98 damage buffed so they would be competitive option for ostruppen on open maps. You are always gonna go assgrens on close range maps anyway.

EDIT:
I also think that it is a ripe time to revaluate the T0 and T1 design when it comes to building grens and HMG as one piece of this "make grens viable again" -puzzle

IS buffs should be reverted and bloster should be reworked (elchino7 had great idea)and i still dont get why they get ther 25% increased cap rate too. Don't know why riflemen got close range buff. Grenadiers are okay, maybe just need slightly increase in long range performance and decrease in reinforce cost to make them bleed less.

grens should be weak on close range so i wouldn't buff ther mid/close range because You have to keep in mind, as OST they have access to Pgrens which can fill the gap for ther mid to close range engagements

I should add this is purely from a 1v1 POV, as i don't really play teamgames that much.

Well that is the biggest issue. Ostheer's power level in teamgames is excellent and Grens are fine when it's easy to back them up with 1-2 HMG 42s and Pioneers on a smaller piece of map where fights are more concentrated, or when you have a 251 or an OKW Battlegroup on the front lines for forward reinforcing. Ostheer teamgames performance is the reason why they haven't been getting any straight up buffs because it'd risk breaking the faction in those modes.

Any change has to be checked against all modes and that's where straight up Gren (or Ostheer) buffs run into a wall.

If there are going to be any changes they'd have to be smart changes that don't straight up increase the power level but rather influence things like momentum, so that they wouldn't influence the other modes as much. So for example I would think about something like adding a 150mp/15fu medics upgrade to the HQ (but keeping the medic bunker so players can choose what to invest) so that Ostheer no longer needs munitions for medics, so Grens can get their LMG 42s faster, as the upgrade really helps their early-mid game but isn't overly available right now because Ostheer needs to spend a lot of munitions on healing and tellers.

IS buffs should be reverted and bloster should be reworked

Then UKF goes back to being useless. They should IMo just revert the moving accuracy buff because it goes against the design of static infantry anyway. Then make them 280 MP again, give them a mortar (i know relic doesnt like that) and call it a day.

I wanna hear aerafield's opinion on 3v3 Ostheer and Grenadiers.

Ive done my analysis and I refuse this argument that LMG grens dont stand up at all.

For a start LMG grens were more than fine in mobile defence meta when allied mainline infantry (yes that included Tommies), guards and penals were stronger. Ost were the strongest faction then, so what changed?

Watching the tournament it's clear, look at the luvnest games he lost.

It's a simple fact of AT and early game power spikes, two of ostheers three early AT options against T70/Valentine/AAHT/stuart are muni based. That means if an allied player focuses early game AI infantry like shocks or AI upgrades like USF or Brits then then a light tank that also can counter 222 you have to invest in tellers, shreks and fausts which means you don't have the 200muni to equip three or four lmgs for your grens. You might be ahead in fuel due to his investment but you play defensively due to T70 and his med timing turns similar to yours.

This is on top of healing bunker, flamer on urban maps, maybe sweepers if vs soviets. So what do ostheer pros do? They pick infantry that needs less muni investment in assgrens, ostruppen/pgren builds.

It's not Rocket science, it's a LV meta and despite being the weakest in the LV department Ost are rich in doctrinal tools to pull through. Hence we see their solid pick and win rates last tournament.

I wanna hear aerafield's opinion on 3v3 Ostheer and Grenadiers.

scroll up to Sander's post, thank you

Well that is the biggest issue. Ostheer's power level in teamgames is excellent and Grens are fine when it's easy to back them up with 1-2 HMG 42s and Pioneers on a smaller piece of map where fights are more concentrated, or when you have a 251 or an OKW Battlegroup on the front lines for forward reinforcing. Ostheer teamgames performance is the reason why they haven't been getting any straight up buffs because it'd risk breaking the faction in those modes.

Any change has to be checked against all modes and that's where straight up Gren (or Ostheer) buffs run into a wall.

If there are going to be any changes they'd have to be smart changes that don't straight up increase the power level but rather influence things like momentum, so that they wouldn't influence the other modes as much. So for example I would think about something like adding a 150mp/15fu medics upgrade to the HQ (but keeping the medic bunker so players can choose what to invest) so that Ostheer no longer needs munitions for medics, so Grens can get their LMG 42s faster, as the upgrade really helps their early-mid game but isn't overly available right now because Ostheer needs to spend a lot of munitions on healing and tellers.

Before the patch, UFK was also powerful in team games, but they still got ther buffs which made them more powerful, yet somehow that doesn't apply here. All factions are more powerful in team games when they are concentrated on a small area on the map not just ostheer, that statement is ridiculous. TBH, out of all factions in team games, ostheer inf struggles the most in the late game, grens and support weps begin to get deleted much easier due to ther squad sizes.

scroll up to Sander's post, thank you

You agree that Grens are too good to buff in 3v3s? The mode where you can get Pgrens and Flame HT in 4 mins?

Before the patch, UFK was also powerful in team games, but they still got ther buffs which made them more powerful, yet somehow that doesn't apply here. All factions are more powerful in team games when they are concentrated on a small area on the map not just ostheer, that statement is ridiculous. TBH, out of all factions in team games, ostheer inf struggles the most in the late game, grens and support weps begin to get deleted much easier due to ther squad sizes.

actually what I think is that pre-patch brits were fine in teamgames but they were just annoying as hell to play on many maps, and they still can be. On closerange or urban maps they struggled to cope (this got addressed now) as well as on campy maps where one MG and one AT gun already gave you a headache due to TRASH indirect fire armament, but sadly this didnt get addressed at all besides a small smoke drop with long-ass cooldown.

But we all know why this didnt get addressed and why sections got changed instead..... "because only the latter helps brits in 1v1 mode"


1v1 mains ruining the fun for everyone else, whats new

You agree that Grens are too good to buff in 3v3s? The mode where you can get Pgrens and Flame HT in 4 mins?

Personally I only get 1 gren for the snare and then only Pgrens after that but yes, I constantly see people making triple lmg42-gren strats work to a great effect in top level teamgames including 2v2

Personally I only get 1 gren for the snare and then only Pgrens after that but yes, I constantly see people making triple lmg42-gren strats work to a great effect in top level teamgames including 2v2

Gren LMG blob works extremely well, fully agree.

Most complaints are for pre-LMG Grens which sadly aren't up to par, though I do see why you can't just buff them with 0 regards for corridor teamgame maps.

I think higher build cost, lower reinforce, better kar98s and more specialized LMG42s won't break teamgames, most players seem to rush T2 vehicles in 3v3. Especially on maps like Essen a 4min flammenHT is amazing.

Well that is the biggest issue. Ostheer's power level in teamgames is excellent and Grens are fine when it's easy to back them up with 1-2 HMG 42s and Pioneers on a smaller piece of map where fights are more concentrated, or when you have a 251 or an OKW Battlegroup on the front lines for forward reinforcing. Ostheer teamgames performance is the reason why they haven't been getting any straight up buffs because it'd risk breaking the faction in those modes.

Any change has to be checked against all modes and that's where straight up Gren (or Ostheer) buffs run into a wall.

If there are going to be any changes they'd have to be smart changes that don't straight up increase the power level but rather influence things like momentum, so that they wouldn't influence the other modes as much. So for example I would think about something like adding a 150mp/15fu medics upgrade to the HQ (but keeping the medic bunker so players can choose what to invest) so that Ostheer no longer needs munitions for medics, so Grens can get their LMG 42s faster, as the upgrade really helps their early-mid game but isn't overly available right now because Ostheer needs to spend a lot of munitions on healing and tellers.

This power creep again and it a thing that should be stopped and reverted.

Currently one has to manage his resources and prioritize what he needs to get first. If grenadier have become up it is the continues buffs to other faction that should be reverted.

High early power levels lead to snowball effects and make thing allot harder to balance.

This power creep again and it a thing that should be stopped and reverted.

Currently one has to manage his resources and prioritize what he needs to get first. If grenadier have become up it is the continues buffs to other faction that should be reverted.

High early power levels lead to snowball effects and make thing allot harder to balance.

We all know you hold ost as the holy grail but rebalancing four factions instead of buffing a few things Ost and UKF need (stuff like Pak tracking were great changes NOT power creep) is not logical.

imo grens aren't THAT bad, i feel they need more of rework than a buffas
we know problem of grens is in being mainline infantry while only 4men squad, weak early game due to terrible close range and quite late timing, while also suffering to same problems as sturmpios, they are hard to use cuz of high reinforcement cost, which isnt much lower than fallschirms' and they have no sandbags as only mainline in the game, beside Riflemen but they dont really need them
for me good thing to make them more viable would be not being so much dependent on munnies and also giving them better early game by raising their cost to 260mp and lowering reinforce to 27-28, making kar98ks better slightly better close/mid range while nerfing close/mid of mg42 to keep their balance, also they could use of having ability to make sandbags tho (pls take away sandbags from tommies), i think it would keep their overall strenght hile making more viable
but problem that remains unsolved will be being 4men, cuz RNG can wipe your squad in 2 shots without any chances of surviving, t70 can kill you soooo bad, this i think makes 5men viable
also dont forget pgrens are insane so grens cannot be close range machines
tho axis infantry is inferior in every way to allies, especially 2xBARS RF and IS, like i dont see why axis inf is so bad