Opinion & suggestions: UKF balancing is overthought.

Disclaimer: I'm a UKF main player and I have hundreds of hours in the game, but I'm no MLG and I recognise these may be wrong.

I've ended up making a few suggestions of ways to rebalance UKF over the past few days in different threads. So I'm gonna throw them together here in one place for people to critique. Mods, if you want to clear up a bit I'll point you to where they are

Edit: changed section 2

Most of the debate seems to be agonising over numbers and values when the prob is just there's an unfilled role which needs a unit to fill it. When an existing unit is adjusted to perform well in a role it wasn't intended to be in, it has multiple domino effects into it's original niche and interactions with units, as we're seeing with the current state of Tommies.

Basically comes as three points:

1) After the latest update, UKF healing to too powerful and encourages blobbing (or it already was with Section's medical supplies)
2) Forcing some compromises around tommy strengths
3) How to give UKF earlier anti-garrison and a sevicable CQB unit.

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1) After the latest update, UKF healing to too powerful (or it was already was with Section's medical supplies)

I haven't played against UKF since the update, but by playing as one, it feels like there's too much healing now? I have an amazing medic squad who can go wherever independently AND my rifles can heal themselves and anyone near. It feels way too easy to keep everyone topped off.

I understand why the medic squad was thought necessary and I like the freedom of moving my healing unit around at will, so my suggestion is:

- Remove the medical supplies upgrade for IS

And replace it with another upgrade, perhaps to try to separate out the IS's power a bit late game across different squads and encourage some diversification and micro. When just one of your combat squads can heal everyone nearby simultaneously WHILE ON THE MOVE blobbing gets much easier too.

I would also suggest make the medic squad's medical supplies ability a toggle-able AOE that locks movment (Like USA ambo) So it can't heal on the move and it can be set up by a retreat point.

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2) Making tommies scale better and forcing some gave & take
Remove bolster, pyro/attach arty observer & medic add one extra model at the cost of a weapon slot

"Attach artillery observer":
- Occupies weapon slot
- Adds 1 model armed with regular rifle with regular stats, maybe give him a radio backpack or something.
- Squad gains ability to call down from base arty the regular barrage, smoke barrage (both with slightly buffed call-down ranges, maybe using a rifle grenade to pop the flare now?) and a flare shot (which would have a much further call-down range than the other two).

I think the current smoke animation is really weird, could they have each of these abilities on separate cool downs, but have them all actually use the on-map base arty guns. As a result they could not be used simultaneously, though you could pop one straight after the other had finished firing. But of course the cool down for each individual barrage type would be global. It would be nice to give the base guns a few more functions.

I would also then buff the smoke barrage a bit to two arty smoke rounds, which would land in a slightly randomised (but small) pattern. Would also be consistent with both the guns turning for the barrage and I guess you could poach the regular barrage code, reduce the salvo to 2, make it more accurate and just turn them to smoke shells. The flare shot would compensate for the lack of recon/removal of ALO/AO recon sweep.


then the second:

"Attach medic":
- Occupies weapon slot
- Add 1 medic model once again armed with regular rifle, regular stats, medic hat ofc
- Gains medical supplies ability. Or to keep the medic squad relevent, the medical supplies ability is removed and the medic auto heals 1 one model at a time and nearby models of other squads when the tommy squad is idle. As a result the dedicated medic squad is a still a much more powerful alternative.

Because the extra man has a regular stat-ed rifle, it would serve the same purpose as bolster and make it more reasonable to have one or two of these on field even when the player is losing weapon slots.

Or have neither of these two upgrades and stay as a 4 man squad with double weapon slots.

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3) Giving the UKF earlier anti-garrison and a CQB unit.

The assault officer is very powerful but it really feels forced into the unit roster and out of place, it's a commando stylised officer unit with no other assault units to command! And I think having no dedicated CBQ assault squads is a fair factional disadvantage to have given the UKF's other strengths and defensive nature. But it still needs something.

-Remove the airlanding/assault officer from the Platoon command post.
- Give Ro.E enfield rifles as standard
- Give Ro.E an 'assault package' upgrade. Squad receives gammon bombs for garrison clearing/destruction, buffed Stens and body armour (from Heavy engineers) for CQB. Squad loses the ability to construct buildings and defences (mines etc) but can still repair. Weapon slots also removed (no PIAT/Bren)
- Heavy engineers could remain the same (now with enfields not smgs) but . ..
. . . the upgrade feels like it can't identify between a combat engineer or advanced repair unit. With this other assault package upgrade in the game. 'Heavy engineers' could be renamed as 'R.E.M.E package', the upgrade loses the Vickers and body armour in return for gaining the repair critical ability (from US vehicle crews). Keeps the double repair/build speed (ofc) and is still slowed down in combat from the extra repairing gear

The minesweeper could be upgraded alongside either of the two RE packages.

If you don't know what REME are: https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/corps-of-royal-electrical-and-mechanical-engineers-reme/

There is now a mid-game anti-garrison assault unit and the anvil engineer upgrade feels a bit more purposed, not hamstrung between a combat upgrade and something I want waiting to fix my tanks.

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Also, these ideas together feature true units and regiments in the real UKF of WW2, not an abstract 'heavy engineer' or 'assault officer'. I think it's a major plus.

The gammon bombs for Hammer tactics could be replaced with something else, but I dunno what

I'd like to see a little rework of the Medics and Tommies.

People using Medics are mostly using them to cap team weapons or take over abandoned vehicles. Its arguable that this was a capability that Brits were missing, but clearly not the intended role of medics. Additionally, the healing they do provide is pretty wonky.

I'd say remove the basic healing from medics and call them something else, possibly giving them Enfields and let people use them as a second line team, then give it a 60 or so munitions upgrade that turns them into medics and gives them a USF Ambulance style healing aura.

Sections likewise need a rethink of their specializations with Medics added to the mix. I'd dump the medkit option, and then put on Assault and AT Specializations instead.

So the changes would look like this:

* Medics lose their healing by default and are renamed to some form of rear line support squad
* Said squad can now spend 60 or so munitions to upgrade to a USF Ambo heal aura that locks the squad in place.

* IS Healing removed.
* Assault Upgrade added. Enfields swapped for Brens, and Grenades swapped for Smoke.
* AT Upgrade added. Grenade swapped for AT Snare and squad gains the improved PIATS ability. (Think ranger improved Bazookas)

i'm realy like the ideal of Ro.E with rifle and smg package as upgarde.

I'd like to see a little rework of the Medics and Tommies.

People using Medics are mostly using them to cap team weapons or take over abandoned vehicles. Its arguable that this was a capability that Brits were missing, but clearly not the intended role of medics. Additionally, the healing they do provide is pretty wonky.

I'd say remove the basic healing from medics and call them something else, possibly giving them Enfields and let people use them as a second line team, then give it a 60 or so munitions upgrade that turns them into medics and gives them a USF Ambulance style healing aura.

Sections likewise need a rethink of their specializations with Medics added to the mix. I'd dump the medkit option, and then put on Assault and AT Specializations instead.

So the changes would look like this:

* Medics lose their healing by default and are renamed to some form of rear line support squad
* Said squad can now spend 60 or so munitions to upgrade to a USF Ambo heal aura that locks the squad in place.

* IS Healing removed.
* Assault Upgrade added. Enfields swapped for Brens, and Grenades swapped for Smoke.
* AT Upgrade added. Grenade swapped for AT Snare and squad gains the improved PIATS ability. (Think ranger improved Bazookas)

They're interesting.

Like you I don't know what the medic squad would be renamed to. I do use my medic squad for that .. . but at three people it's 180 manpower to do it so it's actually expensive and the models are pretty weak. But it's a nice last ditch grab-that-now gimmick.

I don't like the assault upgrade though, Brens are LMGs so would never be standard weapons (and they're at the weapon racks anyway). And such as massive change of role from long to short range would be a funny transformation for a unit. I think the sapper upgrade fits the role better and the anti-garrison can be worked into it with the light gammon bomb. It's also behind a bit of tech.

They're interesting.

Like you I don't know what the medic squad would be renamed to. I do use my medic squad for that .. . but at three people it's 180 manpower to do it so it's actually expensive and the models are pretty weak. But it's a good last ditch grab-that-now gimmick.

I don't like the assault upgrade though, Brens are LMGs so would never be standard weapons (and they're at the weapon racks anyway). And such as massive change of role from long to short range would be a funny transformation for a unit. I think the sapper upgrade fits the role better and the anti-garrison can be worked into it with the light gammon bomb. It's also behind a bit of tech.

I'm sure someone with a little more knowledge of Brits WW2 structure could come up with a name for a second line squad.

You can still play with the costs and values of the medics, but in practice people are using them to grab support weapons. If 180 is to much for a squad that disappears after it grabs that AT Gun/MG, you could further cut the cost and then move it onto the medic upgrade. I'm of the opinion they would get an HP Buff and Springfields in their base form, so they would be more in line with standard support teams which would account for some of the remaining cost as well.

The medics themselves would likewise get better, as you would never have to worry about accidentally bringing them into the field like you do now, and would require less babysitting since you wouldn't need to be constantly going back to base to fire off medkits.

As far as Assault upgrades for Tommies, iirc, most people wanted Royal Engineers to become stronger in the close assault role. If those AT sections went through, you could probably remove their AT Grenade for smoke and try and buff their close assault more while dumping the IS Assault Upgrade I mentioned.

Unfilled roles are part of the balance tools, because this game has assymetrical balance

Added: UKF was though without snare and high damage AT. Guess what, they received snares but the AT damage is still there. Thats powercreep.

Unfilled roles are part of the balance tools, because this game has assymetrical balance

Added: UKF was though without snare and high damage AT. Guess what, they received snares but the AT damage is still there. Thats powercreep.

I think the assymetrical balance means the roles are filled in different combinations by different units. Having an unfilled role would just be leaving a faction with no snare, or no suppression mechanism.

The airlanding/assault officer was added to the Brits following this logic, the devs wanted to give UKF a CQB unit. And it's also why they're attempting to increase the Tommy's aggressiveness and needing to tone down defensiveness to keep it from being OP, which is turning them into a regular inf squad like grenadiers or rifles, thereby removing asymmetry.

Unfilled roles are part of the balance tools, because this game has assymetrical balance

Added: UKF was though without snare and high damage AT. Guess what, they received snares but the AT damage is still there. Thats powercreep.

-They had a powerful snare, it was removed. Critical shot on the sniper was vet 0 and did engine damage on all tanks. It was moved to be vet 1 and do crits based on type of vehicle.
-They had the strongest late game AT infantry in the game and that was removed in favour of zook 2.0
PIAT attack ground > current PIAT
-UKF AT gun lost it bonus accuracy vs vehicles.
-Power comet and 1 shot FF + Tulip wombo (not godly against mediums but easier to land on heavies).
-Ultimate infantry and vehicle denial on the Bofors.
-All the overpowered offmap ranging from skillplanes to Party Cover to kill tanks with.

UKF was thought to rely on sniper/AEC as snare units while the alternative was a Bofors which wouldn't let anything cross in that section of the map.
Tommies would rely on overpowered commander abilities (which all had shared cooldowns) to overcome their "weakness" outside of cover.
All their tanks would rely on high accuracy and mobility (USF 2.0) to offset the lack of physical projectile (FF).

If you remove the Ro Engi snare today and gave them back what they had, you would want them to have their snare back before playing more than 1 game. That's not powercreep, that's called nerfs.

The problem with UKF is the discrepancy between 1v1 and teamgames. The thin line you thread between them been obsolete for 1v1 and their current state.

Which it all boils down to, IMO, their early game transition and performance with bolster.


I would try on keeping their current 4 model performance and instead nerf the scaling they have through medic/pyro/bolster.


Bolster is no longer automatic for IS.
All upgrades occupies a weapon slot. Then you could maybe rollback some nerfs to Brens.
Medic upgrade adds a low combat performing model to the squad.
Pyro adds a scoped lee enfield (to occupy a weapon slot) with lower performance than base rifle
Bolster is free once researched but is mutually exclusive with the other 2.

Now that you have accessible base type healing you have to opt between different options.

-You want double weapons? You stay at 4 models.
-You can get 5 man squad but you have to opt between raw performance, healing or pyro.

The problem with UKF is the discrepancy between 1v1 and teamgames. The thin line you thread between them been obsolete for 1v1 and their current state.

Which it all boils down to, IMO, their early game transition and performance with bolster.


I would try on keeping their current 4 model performance and instead nerf the scaling they have through medic/pyro/bolster.


Bolster is no longer automatic for IS.
All upgrades occupies a weapon slot. Then you could maybe rollback some nerfs to Brens.
Medic upgrade adds a low combat performing model to the squad.
Pyro adds a scoped lee enfield (to occupy a weapon slot) with lower performance than base rifle
Bolster is free once researched but is mutually exclusive with the other 2.

Now that you have accessible base type healing you have to opt between different options.

-You want double weapons? You stay at 4 models.
-You can get 5 man squad but you have to opt between raw performance, healing or pyro.

The is the direction I like as well

-They had a powerful snare, it was removed. Critical shot on the sniper was vet 0 and did engine damage on all tanks. It was moved to be vet 1 and do crits based on type of vehicle.
-They had the strongest late game AT infantry in the game and that was removed in favour of zook 2.0
PIAT attack ground > current PIAT
-UKF AT gun lost it bonus accuracy vs vehicles.
-Power comet and 1 shot FF + Tulip wombo (not godly against mediums but easier to land on heavies).
-Ultimate infantry and vehicle denial on the Bofors.
-All the overpowered offmap ranging from skillplanes to Party Cover to kill tanks with.

UKF was thought to rely on sniper/AEC as snare units while the alternative was a Bofors which wouldn't let anything cross in that section of the map.
Tommies would rely on overpowered commander abilities (which all had shared cooldowns) to overcome their "weakness" outside of cover.
All their tanks would rely on high accuracy and mobility (USF 2.0) to offset the lack of physical projectile (FF).

If you remove the Ro Engi snare today and gave them back what they had, you would want them to have their snare back before playing more than 1 game. That's not powercreep, that's called nerfs.

I think I understand better some UKF posts. I didn't know all the ukf history. I stand corrected

This may be of interest, not sure if it works anymore:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1961083851

Nerfed Medical Supplies, added in-base medics. I've since come to prefer the squad we got, though.
Instead of giving higher moving accuracy to Infantry Sections, I gave Royal Engineers rifles and an SMG upgrade.

The problem with UKF is the discrepancy between 1v1 and teamgames. The thin line you thread between them been obsolete for 1v1 and their current state.

Which it all boils down to, IMO, their early game transition and performance with bolster.


I would try on keeping their current 4 model performance and instead nerf the scaling they have through medic/pyro/bolster.


Bolster is no longer automatic for IS.
All upgrades occupies a weapon slot. Then you could maybe rollback some nerfs to Brens.
Medic upgrade adds a low combat performing model to the squad.
Pyro adds a scoped lee enfield (to occupy a weapon slot) with lower performance than base rifle
Bolster is free once researched but is mutually exclusive with the other 2.

Now that you have accessible base type healing you have to opt between different options.

-You want double weapons? You stay at 4 models.
-You can get 5 man squad but you have to opt between raw performance, healing or pyro.

Maybe just make the 5th man take up a weapon slot like the 7th does for cons. It'd be a lot simpler to implement at first and not pull too many levers at all at once. Modding it would be easy as the mechanic already exists.

Maybe just make the 5th man take up a weapon slot like the 7th does for cons. It'd be a lot simpler to implement at first and not pull too many levers at all at once. Modding it would be easy as the mechanic already exists.

I think this is something which should had been done eons ago but it won't do anything in the current patch as you don't see double weapon wielding IS all that much.

I think this is something which should had been done eons ago but it won't do anything in the current patch as you don't see double weapon wielding IS all that much.

Maybe, but if 5th man isn't basicly the largest power spike in the game for a one time cost it'll be easier to balance. It never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever should have been a global. Let alone one as early or as a cheap as it is/was/will be. It should be an upgrade like 7th man so there is even the slightest thought required. It should be an if not a when.

Maybe, but if 5th man isn't basicly the largest power spike in the game for a one time cost it'll be easier to balance. It never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever should have been a global. Let alone one as early or as a cheap as it is/was/will be. It should be an upgrade like 7th man so there is even the slightest thought required. It should be an if not a when.

Well, this is what happens when u balance around the potential of a unit and not on how they start with.
This is what happens when you drop couple of months before release whole design which lets them scale through the early game (combined operations commander abilities).
Finally imaging playing OH mirror with 1 side having stronger Grens but the other having min 1 sniper.

The problem with UKF is the discrepancy between 1v1 and teamgames. The thin line you thread between them been obsolete for 1v1 and their current state.

Which it all boils down to, IMO, their early game transition and performance with bolster.


I would try on keeping their current 4 model performance and instead nerf the scaling they have through medic/pyro/bolster.


Bolster is no longer automatic for IS.
All upgrades occupies a weapon slot. Then you could maybe rollback some nerfs to Brens.
Medic upgrade adds a low combat performing model to the squad.
Pyro adds a scoped lee enfield (to occupy a weapon slot) with lower performance than base rifle
Bolster is free once researched but is mutually exclusive with the other 2.

Now that you have accessible base type healing you have to opt between different options.

-You want double weapons? You stay at 4 models.
-You can get 5 man squad but you have to opt between raw performance, healing or pyro.

If they made that change and removed bolster as a global upgrade. Would Ro.E then just be 5 man from the start? If you took that with the assault package I mentioned in the OP, would that give a combat engineer upgrade like that even more of a mandate? Since tommies would be weaker in CQB due to having fewer models.

I guess that way of doing it would solve the lack of CQB for UKF without the complication of a recon upgrade like I mentioned. I wasn't aware there was such a big issue with bolster, if that's the crux of the issue and having 5man scoped enfield recon squads running round would be just as bad then I was wrong XD.

But to go to the details of your suggestion, why would the scoped rifle be weaker than the regular? Do the bolster and pyro need to be separate? And how would you keep the cover mechanic for Tommies in-play?
To build on and simplify your suggestion a bit, it could be:

"Attach artillery observer":
- Occupies weapon slot
- Adds 1 model armed with regular rifle with regular stats, maybe give him a radio backpack or something.
- Squad gains ability to call down from base arty the regular barrage, smoke barrage (both with slightly buffed call-down ranges, maybe using a rifle grenade to pop the flare now?) and a flare shot (which would have a much further call-down range than the other two).

I think the current smoke animation is really weird, could they have each of these abilities on separate cool downs, but have them all actually use the on-map base arty guns. As a result they could not be used simultaneously, though you could pop one straight after the other had finished firing. But of course the cool down for each individual barrage type would be global. It would be nice to give the base guns a few more functions.

I would also then buff the smoke barrage a bit to two arty smoke rounds, which would land in a slightly randomised (but small) pattern. Would also be consistent with both the guns turning for the barrage and I guess you could poach the regular barrage code, reduce the salvo to 2, make it more accurate and just turn them to smoke shells. The flare shot would compensate for the lack of recon/removal of ALO/AO recon sweep.


then the second:

"Attach medic":
- Occupies weapon slot
- Add 1 medic model once again armed with regular rifle, regular stats, medic hat ofc
- Gains medical supplies ability. Or to keep the medic squad relevent, the medical supplies ability is removed and the medic auto heals 1 one model at a time and nearby models of other squads when the tommy squad is idle. As a result the dedicated medic squad is a still a much more powerful alternative.

Because the extra man has a regular stat-ed rifle, it would serve the same purpose as bolster and make it more reasonable to have one or two of these on field even when the player is losing weapon slots.

Or have neither of these two upgrades and stay as a 4 man squad with double weapon slots.

If bolster was removed as a global ID keep sappers as a 4 man squad but have an upgrade path that gives them a better slightly better RA, better stens and a 5th man but reduced build and repair rate. Assault sappers if you will. Ukf has so much potential that is just impossible because you can improve your infantry by 25% with a single click.

I think this is something which should had been done eons ago but it won't do anything in the current patch as you don't see double weapon wielding IS all that much.

It would be a reasonable start. If there were actual play testing or data that proved UKF was still overpowered then you could make UKF pay 50 munis/squad to upgrade instead of the global unlock (or something like that).

I have tried UKF multiple times in this patch. So many of the commander abilities are muni-based that upgrades seem like a luxury and I spend the entire game being starved for munitions.

The high pop cap of a lot of their units (FF and Churchill seem like they're too much) means that you don't have a lot of units. I've had some good games but I've also had more bad games. For some reason, the small buff to howitzer pop cap has resulted in people building a lot more howitzers. I had one game where the first three shells from somebody's howitzer killed my Vickers, a section, and the sappers repairing a Cromwell. It might be RNG, but it's still difficult to recover from something like that and it usually doesn't happen when I play any other faction.

I think that IS are pretty good rn. IS are the only real AI the birts have. Axis factions have a lot more to offer on the AI side than the brits. If you nerf or change IS too much that will result in the whole faction not working.
Idk maybe i am ignorant and don't know what I am talking about but it seems that OST and OKW have a lot more AI to offer with stuka/werfer, brumbar, pz2, 222, movable mortar/sup gun, ostwind and tanks than UKF has.
UKF has IS and AA tank.