The Obersoldaten lmg34 has a better on the move dps ratio(60%) then most other infantry small arms-hell, it has a better damage ratio than obersoldaten bolt actions. I consider this to be problematic given how high the base damage output is to begin with and what I perceive to be lmg34 ober's role.
When compared to the on the move MG stats of other infantry, commando brens have ~42% on the move dps, and paratrooper m1919s a measly ~18%. Now with the commandos it makes sense given their role as mobile ambush infantry but the obersoldaten are long range specialists. I do not see why they should be able to chase down other squads so easily.
I dont know exactly where the MG34(on the move) damage ratio should sit, but I'd say bringing it down to ~40%(on the move) would be a start.
Edit: As far as I'm concerned, the ability to fire an LMG on the move is already a big enough boon, they dont need to excel at it too.
Obersoldaten MG34 on the move
14 Apr 2020, 14:42 PM
#1
Posts: 783
14 Apr 2020, 14:58 PM
#2
Posts: 556
Their each squad member cost whopping 40MP to reinforce on top of the upgrade being 80muni. They are fine as they are IMO.
Grens are finally good.
14 Apr 2020, 15:02 PM
#3
Posts: 783
Their each squad member cost whopping 40MP to reinforce on top of the upgrade being 80muni. They are fine as they are IMO.
I get they are expensive and their base stats are consistent with this. But the ability to fire their MG on the move with without a more substantial dps penalty goes against their long range semi static anti infantry role.
14 Apr 2020, 15:04 PM
#4
Posts: 956
I suppose I should have seen this coming after so openly reminiscing about my adventures with LMG obers in the forum and chat.....
They're still a 4 man squad and not supermen even with 0.7 RA as standard. They arrive at a time that most factions have vet II/III inf squads and are expected to fight that. Death is a most effective dps penalty.
The LMG is actually worse the closer the target is, so you really want to keep the squad behind cover and picking off models afar. Moving towards them is actually a bad idea.
They're still a 4 man squad and not supermen even with 0.7 RA as standard. They arrive at a time that most factions have vet II/III inf squads and are expected to fight that. Death is a most effective dps penalty.
The LMG is actually worse the closer the target is, so you really want to keep the squad behind cover and picking off models afar. Moving towards them is actually a bad idea.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
14 Apr 2020, 15:07 PM
#5
Posts: 783
I suppose I should have seen this coming after so openly reminiscing about my adventures with LMG obers in the forum and chat.....
They're still a 4 man squad and not supermen even with 0.7 RA as standard. The LMG is actually worse the closer the target is, so you really want to keep the squad behind cover and picking off models afar.
I understand the role. And I think the damage output when standing still is fine. I just dont like the fact that obers can MOVE while retaining so much dps.
For the record, this is something I've been meaning to post for some time now but I've been on the fence about if Obers being "uber" elite makes it acceptable.
14 Apr 2020, 15:08 PM
#6
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
When compared to the on the move MG stats of other infantry, commando brens have ~42% on the move dps, and paratroopers a measly ~18%.
These numbers are not correct because the amount of weapons between the squads varies (Paras have 2x LMGs). For example at max range Paratroopers as a squad go from 25,4 to 9,7, which is 38% and not 18%.
14 Apr 2020, 15:10 PM
#7
Posts: 783
These numbers are not correct because the amount of weapons between the squads varies (Paras have 2x LMGs). For example at max range Paratroopers as a squad go from 25,4 to 9,7, which is 38% and not 18.
I was referring specifically to the LMG dps and not the dps of the squad as a whole which still favors obers anyway.
I'll edit to clarify though.
14 Apr 2020, 15:13 PM
#8
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
It also almost exclusively matters at max range, because at 20 range for example Obersoldaten as a squad have ~55% DPS on the move while LMG Paratroopers as a squad have ~45%.
Now obviously the difference goes up in favour of the Obers as more models drop, but they need to have an advantage for being a 4 men squad.
Now obviously the difference goes up in favour of the Obers as more models drop, but they need to have an advantage for being a 4 men squad.
14 Apr 2020, 15:20 PM
#9
Posts: 783
It also almost exclusively matters at max range, because at 20 range for example Obersoldaten as a squad have ~55% DPS on the move while LMG Paratroopers as a squad have ~45%.
Now obviously the difference goes up in favour of the Obers as more models drop, but they need to have an advantage for being a 4 men squad.
I thought their advantage was their impressive RA, and concentrated high damage output. I just dont feel like they need to have excellent mobile LMG damage output as well. The IR stgs give them that.
14 Apr 2020, 15:23 PM
#10
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I thought their advantage was their impressive RA
RA does not help against AOE weapons. A 4 men squad is significantly less durable against tanks and mortars or other indirect fire compared to a 6 men squad. Which hurts Obers a lot. They need to have remarkable DPS to compensate this.
14 Apr 2020, 15:25 PM
#11
Posts: 956
I thought their advantage was their impressive RA, and concentrated high damage output. I just dont feel like they need to have excellent mobile LMG damage output as well. The IR stgs give them that.
I think they have 0.7 RA because they'll be fighting squads with +30 or even +40% accuracy due to vet. Sending a 1.0 RA squad against that is just....memeworthy. Take a vet 0 volks squad against vet 3 Rifleman for example. The mobile LMG dps is only good for chasing people walking away imho like that weapons/AT team.
Hey Sander, do the Obers still get bonus acc vs retreating units?
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
14 Apr 2020, 15:30 PM
#12
Posts: 783
RA does not help against AOE weapons. A 4 men squad is significantly less durable against tanks and mortars or other indirect fire compared to a 6 men squad. Which hurts Obers a lot. They need to have remarkable DPS to compensate this.
If their damage isnt good enough, their static damage output should be buffed instead of keeping their mobile damage so high.
14 Apr 2020, 15:35 PM
#13
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
If you want to compare damage on the move do so of the whole squad at close/mid/far.
Comparing percentages of drop of a single weapon at single range can be misleading.
Finally Ober are probably better of standing still instead chasing a retreating squad.
Comparing percentages of drop of a single weapon at single range can be misleading.
Finally Ober are probably better of standing still instead chasing a retreating squad.
14 Apr 2020, 15:42 PM
#14
Posts: 833
Hey Sander, do the Obers still get bonus acc vs retreating units?
I believe this was removed during the first six months of WFA release. Their LMG's were free back then too.
I don't know who at relic thought that was a good idea, but lets take comfort in the fact there's a community team in charge of balance now.
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
14 Apr 2020, 15:52 PM
#15
Posts: 956
I believe this was removed during the first six months of WFA release. Their LMG's were free back then too.
I don't know who at relic thought that was a good idea, but lets take comfort in the fact there's a community team in charge of balance now.
Okay thanks.
Speaking of changes, I will admit to wishing the Suppresskubel to return...but alas such a dream will remain as such.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
14 Apr 2020, 16:31 PM
#16
Posts: 783
If you want to compare damage on the move do so of the whole squad at close/mid/far.
Comparing percentages of drop of a single weapon at single range can be misleading.
Finally Ober are probably better of standing still instead chasing a retreating squad.
Damages are at ranges 0/10/20/30
Top number is static dps, middle is moving dps, bottom is damage ratio.
Percentages rounded to nearest tenth of a percent.
Ober
32.406 29.684 28.617 26.891
17.05 16.672 15.882 15.844
52.6% 56.2% 55.5% 58.9%
Para
52.194 39.436 29.37 26.546
25.356 19.61 13.33 10.656
48.6% 49.7% 45.4% 40.1%
Comm
54.747 58.611 24.462 23.483
26.665 28.443 10.951 11.506
48.7% 48.5% 44.8% 48%
Naturally paras and commandos have substantially higher dps at point blank range both on the move and standing still. Commandos retain this edge up to range 10 but sharply drop off after that(in both static and mobile dps) while para DPS starts to drop at around range 4 due to the carbine weapon profile.
Obers are better at chasing and in fact, Tightrope did a video on this already.
Ober testing is around 7:30.
I don't have an issue with ober static damage output, I just think as long range LMG equipped squad, they should be LESS effective when chasing, not more.
14 Apr 2020, 16:33 PM
#17
Posts: 500
It's the most expensive infantry unit in the game, come on now. They already don't perform very well considering what they cost
14 Apr 2020, 16:38 PM
#18
Posts: 214
It's the most expensive infantry unit in the game, come on now. They already don't perform very well considering what they cost
And that they come late,
and that they are 4,
And that they get fucked by vehicles
14 Apr 2020, 17:14 PM
#19
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
As others said, don't just take at what the LMG34 on it's own is doing but the whole squad.
Obers are fine for how late they arrive.
Obers are fine for how late they arrive.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
14 Apr 2020, 17:20 PM
#20
Posts: 3053
RA does not help against AOE weapons. A 4 men squad is significantly less durable against tanks and mortars or other indirect fire compared to a 6 men squad. Which hurts Obers a lot. They need to have remarkable DPS to compensate this.
Which they do. But do they need to rival semi-auto rifles in moving DPS at max range? Because that's the issue I see with this. If obers are in range and chasing, they're shredding you no matter where they are, like an SMG squad would but at 35 range.
They also literally get an ability with vet that lets them suppress. If that's not stand out infantry capability, I'm not sure what would be.
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