Penals - Why snares?

Jump back to quoted post12 Apr 2020, 16:50 PMSir Edgelord

While I agree with you completely on each of these points I wanna say 1 thing:
Aren't you a big rude? Like, you're right, but still feels like you're in rage and...that's bad, man.

Jump back to quoted post12 Apr 2020, 22:05 PMthedarkarmadillo

at the risk of further sounding like a dick, read the thread between when you posted this and now. It's the frustration knowing full well its going to be a "these very valid reasons don't count because I say so" kinda thread.
Literally a matter of if they don't have it the entire unit as an AT unit is worth nothing with a rebuttal of "nuh uh!"
And "this AT unit should provide no value whatsoever after the light armour phase is done"
This ain't my first rodeo...

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 07:16 AMachpawel

Can You explain why Soviets are better than other factions overall?

I can tell you one thing, it's not because of Penal satchels.

Why don't you relate to the price argument? (how cheap ptrs upgrade is)

70 ammo for 2 PTRS isn't cheap. It's a fair price for their performance

Why don't you relate to the argument that penals snares crit engine on fully healthy vehicles? (The whole debate from a couple of years back ended with the conclusion that snares cant crit engine fully healthy vehicles)

Most snares are available on regular infantry units that can be decked out with anti-infantry weapons. PTRS Penal troops however become a AT squad with bad AT weapons - that is why they get a more impressive snare.

Why do you keep comapring ptrs penals squad to a more expensive pzgrenshreck squad? Wahy don't you see that a satchel not only fdrains 240hp but more imprtantly alost immobilizes a vehicle.

Satchels don't immobilize, they cause engine damage. Satchels also, unlike other snares, give your tanks 3 seconds to speed back to safety when they are tagged by the snare.

You also seem to be completely neglecting the fact that ptrs are very good at adding extra bits of damage to other at solutions.

Thats an interesting way of phrasing "PTRS does shit damage against anything that isn't a light tank". The PTRS is a bad weapon. Stop trying to newspeak it into something it's not.


IMO you basically think that you are right and get edgy, which you just shouldn't do. Your arguments simply are the sort of all or nothing. You seem to believe that satchels are 100% perfect while I, and many players, believe they are 90% fine. You don't seem to see those tiny bits that could potentially be corrected and make penals closer to being even better balanced.

I don't even want to start the whole combined arms stuff - some folks keep repeating use combined arms and in this thread you miraculously can't see that satchels plus combined arms of long range tank destroyers plus at guns make it very difficult for any tanks to attack soviets. Sort of penals should be great on their own story.

Literally the same applies to other combined arms situations. Every late game combined arms army is hard to crack if they are in 1 position.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:15 AMAerohank

I can tell you one thing, it's not because of Penal satchels.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:15 AMAerohank

70 ammo for 2 PTRS isn't cheap. It's a fair price for their performance

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:15 AMAerohank

Most snares are available on regular infantry units that can be decked out with anti-infantry weapons. PTRS Penal troops however become a AT squad with bad AT weapons - that is why they get a more impressive snare.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:15 AMAerohank

Satchels don't immobilize, they cause engine damage. Satchels also, unlike other snares, give your tanks 3 seconds to speed back to safety when they are tagged by the snare.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:15 AMAerohank

Thats an interesting way of phrasing "PTRS does shit damage against anything that isn't a light tank". The PTRS is a bad weapon. Stop trying to newspeak it into something it's not.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:15 AMAerohank

Literally the same applies to other combined arms situations. Every late game combined arms army is hard to crack if they are in 1 position.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 09:32 AMachpawel

I agree to a point here. On this stage of balance, imo, balance is no longer about a given unit. The balance is probably more connected with details in many areas/unit stats/pricing that add up and lead to one faction being slightly better than another. In the case of Soviets imo the problem lies in many tiny bits that add up throught the game. One of those bits is the power of satchels in certain game situations. Satchels add a bit to the overall slightly OP strength of Soviets.

Exactly. But it is 60 not 70. It is a very good price for what they do and double shreck performance shouldn't be expected. Imo a satchel with both the ability to crit damage a fully healthy vehicle engine and deal a lot of damage is a bit too much.

They become adequate anty tank/infantry squad for 300 manpower and 60muni upgrade. They perform still surprisingly well as an anty infantry squad too and are quite durable. Many players still somehow expect them to be a shrecked pzgren equivalent, which is wrong. Coming back to balance - a pretty typical feature of Soviet units - cheaper but equally effective. (There is basically a really visible expectation of many players to make Soviets units as effective as some axis units without adjusting (increasing) the cost of such units).

Yep, they give crit engine - sorry for the mistake (but I keep repeating crit engine in many places in the post, so I hope readers understood the context). Imo on higher levels a vehicle that has a dmg engine is basically a dead vehicle, especially for the axis (generally no crit repairs), so a fully healthy vehicle imo should rather be stunned with the satchel than crid dmged. 3 seconds in this case does not change much.

I'm not doing any newspeak. Ptrs does adequate damge to how much it costs - only 60 munitions. For 60 munitions you get a decent at rifles AND the snare that does both a lot of damage (a shreck volley?) and crit engine damage on a fully healty vehicle. It is too much for only 60 munitions upgrade - simple and no newspeak here.

Yes and no. While it is true that combined arms are powerful for every army, it has nothing to do with the fact that Soviets pay only 60 munitions to buy ptrs with satchel combo and the possibility to crit engine fully healthy tanks.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 11:27 AMAerohank

I don't agree with you that 60 ammo is a fair price for PTRS. I think it is a fair price for PTRS and satchel package. The PTRS a bad - on nearly every unit it's not worth the rifle it replaces even if it would be free. It's the one weapon which you only pick up with units that you don't expect to be doing much fighting anyway, like pioneers or Ostruppen.

In a game where you are meant to keep your infantry alive, it's not worth it to permanently convert your expensive squads into units that only counter vehicles that are present in one short phase of the game. If you want to know what Penals would be like with a nerfed satchel, you don't need the theory-craft, they are already in the game in the UKF roster: Boys AT tommies. Boys AT Tommies are never used and for good reason - their rifles are bad and their snare doesn't make up for it. That is what Penals PTRS upgrade will become without the performance of the satchel.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 12:10 PMVipper

Comparing AT tommies and Penal is simply wrong. AT tommies use weapon similar to Guards and they are fine.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 12:15 PMKatitof

Must be reason why no one ever uses them and why they got multiple buffs now, because they were fine.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 11:27 AMAerohank

I don't agree with you that 60 ammo is a fair price for PTRS. I think it is a fair price for PTRS and satchel package. The PTRS a bad - on nearly every unit it's not worth the rifle it replaces even if it would be free. It's the one weapon which you only pick up with units that you don't expect to be doing much fighting anyway, like pioneers or Ostruppen.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 11:27 AMAerohank

In a game where you are meant to keep your infantry alive, it's not worth it to permanently convert your expensive squads into units that only counter vehicles that are present in one short phase of the game. If you want to know what Penals would be like with a nerfed satchel, you don't need the theory-craft, they are already in the game in the UKF roster: Boys AT tommies. Boys AT Tommies are never used and for good reason - their rifles are bad and their snare doesn't make up for it. That is what Penals PTRS upgrade will become without the performance of the satchel.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 13:03 PMKatitof

1) Grens were also OP in march deployment patch and had to be nerfed. How is that relevant now?
2) No.
3) Agreed, new tiger is fine.
4) Are you planning to give them lend lease zooks/stolen shrecks too? Have you forgot AT sections got upgrade to actual AT weapons? Are you in the exact same denial achpawel is about PTRS penals needing satchels to scale and perform in mid to late game?
And yeah, we get it by now, any kind of change to any kind of allied unit in your eyes makes them probably OP unless its severe cut in performance, plus literally NO ONE asks for any buffs to AT penals, you're the first one to mention it.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 13:15 PMKatitof

Addressing just 4(because that's what the thread is about after all), he is indeed right, soviets and brits do NOT have the exact same units and abilities with just different skins, AT IS works in context of other british tools and tech system and upgrades, including actual potent handheld AT, PTRS Penals with stats of AT IS and AT nade would NOT work in context of faction and tools it has.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 13:15 PMKatitof

I find it hilarious you even try to contest that point, you're very average player at best,..

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 13:15 PMKatitof

but at least you play all factions, so I can not wrap my head around you even considering the thought that AT penals would work past early game with AT nades, when in this very patch AT IS was buffed specifically because they didn't.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 12:59 PMVipper

1) AT tommies where actually OP at some point in time and had to be nerfed:

"BOIS Anti-Tank Infantry Sections
The AT Infantry Section will no longer be able to purchase upgrade kits due to their existing versatility.
• Can no longer upgrade Medkits/Pyro supplies
• AT nade range from 20 to 15"

2) Pls do not twist what I post by I wrote "they are fine" (present) and you responded about how they "were (not) fine" at some undefined point in past.

3) As well aware a doctrinal unit will not be used if they commander is not chosen and thus the use of unit (not taking into account of use of commander) say little for value of the unit.

4) Finally if in you opinion if PTRS Penal will some how become nerfed by getting the AT grenade tank hunter IS have feel as claimed by Aerohank feel free to make present your argument.

Imo if Penal get the Boy rifles type weapons and AT grenades instead satchel they will probably be OP.

Now can Pls stop to prove my every post wrong and derail threads in process. I am pretty sure that user of this forum are getting tired from this behavior.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 13:15 PMKatitof

Addressing just 4(because that's what the thread is about after all), he is indeed right, soviets and brits do NOT have the exact same units and abilities with just different skins, AT IS works in context of other british tools and tech system and upgrades, including actual potent handheld AT, PTRS Penals with stats of AT IS and AT nade would NOT work in context of faction and tools it has.

I find it hilarious you even try to contest that point, you're very average player at best, but at least you play all factions, so I can not wrap my head around you even considering the thought that AT penals would work past early game with AT nades, when in this very patch AT IS was buffed specifically because they didn't.