Login

russian armor

Tiger nerf

PAGES (13)down
13 Jun 2020, 22:10 PM
#202
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Heavy meta was a much worst deterrent for OH play than for any other faction. OH can now use infantry doctrines while before they would be in a really awkward spot if they were gonna be facing heavy tanks. I think whenever heavy mobile tanks gets 50 range through vet, they remove most of the options to counter them. In the case of OH, it makes both the Stug/PV have no range advantage.


When you can play without fearing so much the late game, you can actually push for early game and punish certain factions such as SU, before they can bring their power play (T70 or late game).


Before buffing ANY HEAVY, i would start first by nerfing said commanders first, then adjusting vet performance down on TDs and whatever adjustments needs to be done in general due to FOTM.
14 Jun 2020, 09:21 AM
#203
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282



Snip


IMO Ostheer was the least "Heavy dependant" faction during those time considering the power of the Panther and the reliable pen of the Pak. Heavies have the role of an are denial and strong AI offensive unit. While Comet/Kv-2 (or even IS-2 can fill this role) the Brummbar is in a weird spot due to its small range and somewhat poor mobility seems good for waiting the opponent to come and not the other way.
While the Tiger could comit to kill an MG or whatever without much risk, making some "camping" around the victory point with mass AT not a viable option. Those nerf combine with frag bombs nerf (good nerf though) turn the meta around that. And the lack of power from the Panzerwerfer to fill this gap is clear (Panzerwerfer is IMO a bad unit, but beyond that, it is not meant to clear an area like a Katyu or Calliope).
This new "meta" often forced in the UTT2 the OKW to produce stuka to counter those AT/Mg/mortar pit and therefore giving up to the OKW P4 (a powerful unit).

To conclude, I'd point out that the Tiger hasn't seen any big AT change, so its role as an heavy which counter medium (T34-76/sherman/cromwell) is the same, but its real "spearhead" role as I described isn't good anymore, and Ostheer more than others with their weaker infantry (without doc) and weak "area cleaner" (what I tried to described with the Brummbar ect...) struggle more than ever to clearly forced its tempo to the game. (The Soviet lack of early game powerfull couldn't be exploit in 2vs2 because they were often paired with UKF and their AEC, installing a mortar pit and holding the line against the weak Ostheer assault).

Those obervation led me to think that the Tiger had a real role within the Ostheer synergy and alone was able to overshadow some weakness which now are clear. That's why nerfing other commanders (which is not a bad idea) isn't what will clearly help the Ostheer to come back (because the Elephant isn't that good in 1vs1/2vs2 IMO and isn't enough to overshadow Ostheer weaknesses, while the inf doc is a bit better)
MMX
14 Jun 2020, 12:57 PM
#204
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


Thanks for the link.

So if I read this correctly then we have to compare the Tiger data posted in this thread with the orange bars in the old thread?

This would mean that the Tiger lost about 20% AI capacity compared to 8,5% of the IS2 and 18% of the Pershing at range 20.
So compared to the IS2 it got hit harder while compared to the Pershing it is pretty much the same (longer ranges should equal it out since Pershing has worse scatter stats).


Yeah, this sounds about right. In summary, the Tiger lost about 20% of its AI performance vs spread-out formations and up to 30% vs clumped squads using the time to kill a 6-man squad as the benchmark. The Pershing and IS-2 on the other hand only perform 5-15% worse in the same set of tests (see table below, and detailed graphs in the spoiler)





Considering it overperformed quite a bit in the AI department prior to the patch one could say this is fine. However, taking the Vet2 scatter nerf into account it can also be argued that the overall AI reduction may have been a bit too harsh. If it were up to me, I'd probably either revert the mid-AOE distance reduction or give the Tiger part of its scatter bonus back (maybe only 10% and at Vet3 instead). This would at least bring the magnitude of the AoE-damage nerfs in line with the other two heavies.
14 Jun 2020, 17:51 PM
#205
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

...


You are basing your opinion in the last 2v2 tournament while ignoring both the last 1v1 tournament and the ones prior to the patch, if you say OH was the least "heavy dependant".

OH 1v1 =/= OH teamgames.

OH has already made a comeback in the 1v1 scene.
14 Jun 2020, 18:09 PM
#206
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282



You are basing your opinion in the last 2v2 tournament while ignoring both the last 1v1 tournament and the ones prior to the patch, if you say OH was the least "heavy dependant".

OH 1v1 =/= OH teamgames.

OH has already made a comeback in the 1v1 scene.


As I said I base my opinion on both tournament and my own Teamgame experience. Teamgames regroup 2vs2/3vs3 and 4vs4 and the results of OH is mitiged or even negative. So what I said took into account the 1vs1 too.

1vs1 isn't the only gamemode and even there, Ostheer has to pick a doc which can provide him a better mainline infantry to keep up, an their comeback is also part of the UKF come back, which the OKW can't fight properly.
27 Jul 2020, 13:59 PM
#207
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3045 | Subs: 3

Was there any clip where the people who whine and moan about the tiger, tested its performance? Would be much more useful than this fuking useless "wahh I had some random match today and it sucked!" where it's literally impossible to tell if the Tiger underperformed because of trash micro, unlucky RNG or wrong decisions (e. g. using a heavy tank on a map with a lot of elevation) if there is no replay provided

I have used and tested this unit many times since the nerf and I'm getting exactly what I expect: a PREMIUM PANTHER that has more armor, more health, same anti tank and much better anti inf than a panther.




And in this clip I didnt even use a pintle-mount MG or ground attack. It wiped 3 squads in 1 minute, and only one squad was bunched up. Seriously wtf do people expect here?

27 Jul 2020, 14:04 PM
#208
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

snip


Repeat the test with a Panzer IV.
27 Jul 2020, 14:44 PM
#209
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3045 | Subs: 3



Repeat the test with a Panzer IV.


I'm sure their AI level is the same.
27 Jul 2020, 16:02 PM
#210
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 857 | Subs: 2



I have used and tested this unit many times since the nerf and I'm getting exactly what I expect: a PREMIUM PANTHER that has more armor, more health, same anti tank and much better anti inf than a panther.


If the Tiger is so good as you say why does Sander93 suggests a slight buff in in his ideas for the next patch? He and others tested the unit too and come to an other conclusion than yourself: the Tiger was hit harder than other heavies by the nerfs.
MMX
27 Jul 2020, 16:04 PM
#211
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

Was there any clip where the people who whine and moan about the tiger, tested its performance? Would be much more useful than this fuking useless "wahh I had some random match today and it sucked!" where it's literally impossible to tell if the Tiger underperformed because of trash micro, unlucky RNG or wrong decisions (e. g. using a heavy tank on a map with a lot of elevation) if there is no replay provided

I have used and tested this unit many times since the nerf and I'm getting exactly what I expect: a PREMIUM PANTHER that has more armor, more health, same anti tank and much better anti inf than a panther.




And in this clip I didnt even use a pintle-mount MG or ground attack. It wiped 3 squads in 1 minute, and only one squad was bunched up. Seriously wtf do people expect here?



good stuff. though some people still won't be convinced, this is the stuff the discussion needs.
27 Jul 2020, 16:19 PM
#212
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



I'm sure their AI level is the same.


Exactly, which is why it’s pointless to go Tiger. The meta has thus shifted to 5man Grens in 1v1/2v2 to bolster the infantry war by quite a margin, while Panzer IVs and the buffed Brummbar can bear the brunt of fighting infantry and Panthers are there for fighting heavies, as well as the Elephant alternative pick to 5man Grens as an ISU152 counter. It’s not worth picking a Tiger doctrine just to pay double the P4 price for a P4’s anti infantry and to make do with LMG Grenadiers.
27 Jul 2020, 16:47 PM
#213
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1



Exactly, which is why it’s pointless to go Tiger. The meta has thus shifted to 5man Grens in 1v1/2v2 to bolster the infantry war by quite a margin, while Panzer IVs and the buffed Brummbar can bear the brunt of fighting infantry and Panthers are there for fighting heavies, as well as the Elephant alternative pick to 5man Grens as an ISU152 counter. It’s not worth picking a Tiger doctrine just to pay double the P4 price for a P4’s anti infantry and to make do with LMG Grenadiers.


Nothing needs to be added to this.
27 Jul 2020, 17:20 PM
#214
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3045 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2020, 16:02 PMSmartie

why does Sander93 suggests a slight buff in in his ideas for the next patch?.


ok, a slight buff. But some people here act like the Tiger is the worst unit known to man
27 Jul 2020, 17:23 PM
#215
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

But some people here act like the Tiger is the worst unit known to man


Noobs and trolls aside, the general consensus is that the Tiger in its current state is not worth investing in. I don't see anything wrong with that consensus nor do I think some huge buff is needed. I think a slight buff in performance or a shift to a command tank role for both Ost and OKW variants would turn it into a viable choice in the meta.
27 Jul 2020, 17:37 PM
#216
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3045 | Subs: 3



Noobs and trolls aside, the general consensus is that the Tiger in its current state is not worth investing in


I think it's debatable if its worth to pay an extra 45 fuel and 140 manpower for a Panther that is more durable and has P4 anti inf. I would say it can totally be worth it
27 Jul 2020, 17:41 PM
#217
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

I tend to get a Tiger at some point. I kind of agree that it needs a buff, but at the same time I'm VERY HAPPY that it's not a must-get unit any longer. It was boring to skip tiers, spam Pgrens, and rush to Tiger as good as every game.
27 Jul 2020, 17:47 PM
#218
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 857 | Subs: 2

I kind of agree that it needs a buff, but at the same time I'm VERY HAPPY that it's not a must-get unit any longer. It was boring to skip tiers, spam Pgrens, and rush to Tiger as good as every game.


I think we can all agree on this.
27 Jul 2020, 17:47 PM
#219
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

The Tiger got a special treatment with the 20% scatter at vet 2 removed. Plus if I remember correctly, the AOE nerf was the exact same flat amount for all heavies, which represent a bigger impact on the Tiger proportionaly since it has the lowest (AOE) of the 3(IS,Pershing,Tiger).

Revert the Scatter and we should be fine.

And I'm more willing to take into acount the stats given mounth ago rather than a vid.
27 Jul 2020, 17:47 PM
#220
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Was there any clip where the people who whine and moan about the tiger, tested its performance? Would be much more useful than this fuking useless "wahh I had some random match today and it sucked!" where it's literally impossible to tell if the Tiger underperformed because of trash micro, unlucky RNG or wrong decisions (e. g. using a heavy tank on a map with a lot of elevation) if there is no replay provided

I have used and tested this unit many times since the nerf and I'm getting exactly what I expect: a PREMIUM PANTHER that has more armor, more health, same anti tank and much better anti inf than a panther.




And in this clip I didnt even use a pintle-mount MG or ground attack. It wiped 3 squads in 1 minute, and only one squad was bunched up. Seriously wtf do people expect here?



I don't want to knitpick cause I know when people post videos they cannot incoorporate every test scenario into videos, and I know in posts after this one I'm replying to you've said it could use a slight buff, but as you've said with the tiger not shooting with elevation influence, trash micro and RNG, this would theoredically be a best case scenario. If this is best case, worst case ingame the tiger would be pretty close to useless. So I do think some of those cries are not entirely unwarranted.
PAGES (13)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

SHOUT IT OUT!

No ProfanityNumber of ShoutsRefresh Shout Box
Lady Xenarra: @Willy Pete The lack of April Fools this year is odd lol
Today, 01:34 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone not dead yet. when that happens the font will switch to Papyrus :*(
Today, 00:16 AM
dasheepeh: it was an honor guys :guyokay:
Yesterday, 20:34 PM
aerafield: yeah I already prepared my "Can't believe there's comic mode for the 10 daily visitors even on this April 1st" :guyokay:
Yesterday, 20:29 PM
Rosbone: @dasheepeh I guess that means this site is officially dead :guyokay:
Yesterday, 20:19 PM
dasheepeh: no comic sans font for april 1st this year?
Yesterday, 19:56 PM
Willy Pete: @Lady Xenarra this you? https://i.imgflip.com/3e4thi.jpg
Yesterday, 02:53 AM
Lady Xenarra: Does anyone else think that USF needs buffs? It feels like they’re on life support sometimes
Yesterday, 02:36 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone Ahh I missed that memo. I still think its a bad decision though. Adds frustration for players and isnt gonna make them that much money
Last Thursday, 15:46 PM
Rosbone: It is also good they left it free until after the free to play weekend. Points for that.
Last Thursday, 09:34 AM
Rosbone: But I agree, the cost to get a full decent Coh game pushing $115 US is not the best idea. Especially when it needs so much more work for casuals.
Last Thursday, 09:32 AM
Rosbone: To be fair, it was a thank you to early fans right? They said it was not free for long and it would become a pay DLC at some point.
Last Thursday, 09:30 AM
Willy Pete: Re-releasing free DLC so they can charge new players money for it. Brilliant marketing strategy :clap:
Last Thursday, 04:31 AM
Soheil: Coh2 still broken server ?
25 Mar 2025, 18:27 PM
Rosbone: Congrats to Relic. Looks like Coh3 has finally usurped Coh2 s the popular Coh. You smell terrific. :snfQuinn:.
24 Mar 2025, 02:46 AM
Nickbn: and again someone else replies. I mean come on guys. Give @adamírcz a chance
22 Mar 2025, 14:00 PM
Willy Pete: @Nickbn you didn't ask a question, and this is a chat box...
20 Mar 2025, 13:11 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone it's incredibly rude to speak on someone elses behalf, especially when a question is directly adressed to them. I understand your passion for the subject at hand but I want to hear from him.
20 Mar 2025, 10:16 AM
Rosbone: @Nickbn No, I am just saying people should not be using any Relic owned forum since they have proven they ban anyone who says true things about Coh3.
18 Mar 2025, 19:01 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone do you speak on his behalf? I didn't know. In that case keep us updated please.
18 Mar 2025, 16:47 PM
Rosbone: #RelicModdedEchoChamber
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Rosbone: @Nickbn True except, the only people on the Relic Discord/Reddit/Steam are brain washed monkey zealots. They wont even understand what @adamírcz is talking about. Anyone else is banned.
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Nickbn: @adamírcz might be a better idea to voice this to relic directly than to voice it here, in a shoutbox of a nearly deade fansite #justsaying...
16 Mar 2025, 16:36 PM
webdesign-muenchen-w: @Rosbone it is sick
14 Mar 2025, 22:09 PM
aerafield: @adamírcz aren't the first two disconnects free every day?
14 Mar 2025, 19:26 PM
Rosbone: It is so unlike Relic to punish its fans and community.
14 Mar 2025, 12:07 PM
adamírcz: So, I just got a leaver penalty without even getting onto the loading screen because of the game disconnecting, bravo Relic
14 Mar 2025, 10:45 AM
Rosbone: It is an indicator of the very short sighted capitalist view that plagues any company where leadership does not understand the product.
13 Mar 2025, 20:00 PM
Rosbone: They dont care about Coh3 or Coh in general. They are just trying to grab cash by ripping off the small user base they have.
13 Mar 2025, 19:58 PM
Rosbone: Just making mistake after mistake after mistake.
13 Mar 2025, 19:57 PM
Rosbone: It is clear they crapped out an unfinished game. And are now barely supporting it as they make new smaller games. Coh3 is stillborn. It will be meh for at least another 2-4 years. Meaning they killed the whole franchise instead of growing it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:56 PM
Rosbone: For a thing they could fix in minutes. Literally minutes.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: If I did play coh3 and was mainly a skirmish player, I would be pissed and probably stop playing. And it has been like this since release. Why? I would not tell my friends to buy a game I am not even playing. Lost sales and angered users.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: I am just saddened how Relic keeps hurting themselves by not fixing 5 minute things like menus. Why anger users with stuff that could be fixed in minutes???
13 Mar 2025, 19:50 PM
Rosbone: I was wondering why people think I was raging. I think it was when I said "because coh3 sucks so bad". That was not my opinion. Just a general feel from top players/streamers. I dont play Coh3 and have NO opinion of it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:48 PM
OKSpitfire: You can rage as often as you like btw, you usually manage to make it pretty funny.
12 Mar 2025, 11:18 AM
Rosbone: So it was a systemic failure across multiple disciplines and check points.
12 Mar 2025, 04:30 AM
Rosbone: Knowing how companies work, I imagine a new hire making the menus. The API they are using is complicated and things were hard to figure out. But at some point QA or management should have addressed these things. Usually within 6 months of starting.
12 Mar 2025, 04:29 AM
Rosbone: @theekvn I dont hate Coh3 or Relic. I just dont understand how you work on Coh3 for like 7 years and the menu system is worse than if a Programming 101 student made it. Feel free to explain it to me.
12 Mar 2025, 04:07 AM
theekvn: + 33% dmg rear hit was best deal ever.
12 Mar 2025, 04:00 AM
theekvn: KT just need fuel debuf from 15% to 50%, Ele arc of fire- aim time improve and they are good to go
12 Mar 2025, 03:59 AM
theekvn: and please Rosbone,I know you hate Coh3 to the bone due to your drama with relic, Still, Can you give a proper point of view instead of raging ?.
12 Mar 2025, 03:54 AM
theekvn: you rather go 76 to unity Whizbang 2.0 or go home.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: also US tier 4 is 145f and Sherman pen 140 nerf is too much.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: Whizbang lock behind CP, meanwhile stuka is techtree progress
12 Mar 2025, 03:51 AM
KoRneY: @aerafield It's possible that it is underpriced for what it is capable of now, no need to go full retard and take it immediately as a massive problem. It costs 60 more MP than a pz.3 and in 2v2 the barrage can be quite strong.
07 Mar 2025, 19:14 PM
OKSpitfire: I do like that they made the Stuka more expensive instead of nerfing it into the ground though. Found it pretty unsatisfying to use before that buff a while back....
06 Mar 2025, 16:35 PM
aerafield: USF already is by far the shittiest faction in terms of countering blobbing and turtling, now they supposedly have one overtuned tool locked behind a BG and it's immediately a massive problem?
06 Mar 2025, 13:33 PM
Lady Xenarra: I think post-2.0 Whizbang buffs, the price is too low esp since the Stuka got nerfed in cost too. Speaking of which, how exactly is one supposed to successfully dive this Sherman in disguise? Med tank spam running into SSFs?
06 Mar 2025, 12:13 PM
OKSpitfire: A powerful, doctrinal unit that outperforms stock stuff? Colour me shocked! :P
06 Mar 2025, 10:49 AM
Willy Pete: Cool you wanna lose your stock lategame arty too then?
06 Mar 2025, 03:20 AM
Lady Xenarra: WTB Whizzbang for DAK instead of Stuka, 5 fuel cheape, 60MP more expensive and next to impossible to dive. :rofl:
05 Mar 2025, 20:27 PM
Rosbone: It is also hard to expect Relic to help Coh2 when they cant even make working menus in Coh3 yet, 2 years after release and at full price+ for DLCs. Thats like asking a fish to do calculus.
04 Mar 2025, 02:58 AM
Rosbone: But this last patch has made good progress for grabbing players. All we can hope is Coh3 gets to Coh2s quality level before everyone abandons the franchise. Its Relic so they will completely f*%k it up as usual. But its a hope/cope.
04 Mar 2025, 02:55 AM
Rosbone: Relic wants Coh2 to fail so players will migrate to Coh3. It is hard to blame them since Coh3 sucks so bad. It needs all the help it can get.
04 Mar 2025, 02:53 AM
Soheil: Coh2 is dead , full of map hackers , and lelic knows that but ...
04 Mar 2025, 01:26 AM
aerafield: Oh how I missed the weird spam bots, welcome back :banana:
03 Mar 2025, 13:05 PM
situsgbo777: Platform game online terpercaya dengan berbagai pilihan permainan seru dan peluang menang besar. Nikmati pengalaman bermain terbaik hanya di GBO777
03 Mar 2025, 06:48 AM
OKSpitfire: @aerafield that does sound familiar
02 Mar 2025, 09:06 AM
aerafield: @Lady Xenarra :rofl:
02 Mar 2025, 01:45 AM

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

367 users are online: 367 guests
1 post in the last 24h
12 posts in the last week
79 posts in the last month
Registered members: 53177
Welcome our newest member, Nessl541
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM