Tiger nerf

It's pretty simple. Don't get a heavy tank and assume it will be a one unit blob counter that also can counter ATGs frontally and you won't be disappointed. They can still soak a lot of damage and dominate medium tanks. You just have to actually use combined arms to support them against infantry/support weapons/ TDs now instead of YOLO charging in and nuking everything with overtuned AoE.

All of those are correct I agree. But they are not giving the full picture because this is simply a 1v1 comparison and not a faction comparison. Both OKW and OST has nothing better than their AT guns to counter the IS-2 compared to super effective SU-85. Thus even Tiger was better on paper it was overshadowed by IS-2 IMO.

(I know StuG and JP4 exists but they either lack the range or penetration or both)

It's not even correct. He's pretending IS2 didn't have 375 armour.

IS2 had 25% more armour and Tiger's RoF superiority helped to make it a draw between the two at best.

They can still soak a lot of damage and dominate medium tanks. You just have to actually use combined arms to support them against infantry/support weapons/ TDs now instead of YOLO charging in and nuking everything with overtuned AoE.

Combined arms to support an expensive lategame heavy unit vs some T0 units, nice.
And dominate medium tanks... At 12 cp U have enough vs medium tanks, if not, the game would be already over before reaching 12 cp.

You build to it have something vs those vet3 inf blobs running around in lategame, and to support your T3 units.

IS2 still wiping squads left and right despite nerfs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFu6XnP6ObY&t=1636s

Was that some next level sarcasm?
Because from your time stamp onwards, IS-2 was missing infantry so badly it wasn't even funny and haven't hit anything outside of panther.

It's not even correct. He's pretending IS2 didn't have 375 armour.

IS2 had 25% more armour and Tiger's RoF superiority helped to make it a draw between the two at best.

Tiger killed IS-2 faster then IS-2 could kill Tiger WITH 375 armor on IS-2.
At the moment Tiger just roflstomps IS-2.

Tiger killed IS-2 faster then IS-2 could kill Tiger WITH 375 armor on IS-2.
At the moment Tiger just roflstomps IS-2.

Actually in a straight slugging match at long range, the IS-2 had a slight edge.

Just going by dividing the penetration chance into 6 reloads(required to kill) at long range, the old IS 2 kills the old tiger in ~55 seconds while the old tiger kills the old IS 2 in ~58 seconds.


Obviously with the armor nerf, the tiger now has the advantage.

Nice to see more Pz IV play by my OST teammates instead of just Tiger stall....though I still want to strangle the (now) 12/13 CP stallers. Had a game with 2 Jagdtiger OKW players on my team instead of OKW tiger....which is much appreciated considering the walls of allied TDs/ISU we were up against. The TA ended up being mostly target practice (unsurprising)

Combined arms to support an expensive lategame heavy unit vs some T0 units, nice.
And dominate medium tanks... At 12 cp U have enough vs medium tanks, if not, the game would be already over before reaching 12 cp.

You build to it have something vs those vet3 inf blobs running around in lategame, and to support your T3 units.

I agree. While heavy tanks should not be "call in-win" types of units, they should inspire fear.
You have to save fuel and manpower to get them in. You have to sacrifice mediums to get heavies in and that's where you lose. However, if you managed to hold out and not lose a lot during the time you were saving, you should be able to inspire fear into blobs (right now, I only see massive blobs of infantry on every map at rank 16-18). Furthermore, the 12 CP cost is a good change. So.....
....
!! You have to do damage/kill to get CP and you have to save fuel. For the damage and kills you need tanks (but you're saving fuel), and to save fuel you can't spam mediums. See where I'm going with this? Heavies should be stronger vs infantry than they are now. Pershing got effectively nullified. Tiger is weaker but still mainly used to counter veichles since axis have great infantry support vs blobs (and a big amount of great artilery). IS2 is also meh. KT is still strong. The Pershing got the biggest hit mainly because it's the least survivable one of all the heavy call ins.

However, I have also seen a lot of BS plays in the recent games. My teammates letting the enemy control one side of the map (no defenses or anything) with VP and munition points and then cry when the enemy is spamming arty on them (eg. I was in the middle spawn position and my top teammate let the enemy have 2 munition points and VP on Steppes, at rank 18...).

I'm not an expert and I mainly play COH2 to have fun and have good games, win or lose (even though the toxicity is sometimes high), so I'm not really "The Man" on all of this. However, I am a physicist and I believe I am not of below average IQ so I can notice the patterns. The assymetrical balance is great and all, but everything getting "more in line with" is killing the balance.

Combined arms to support an expensive lategame heavy unit vs some T0 units, nice.
And dominate medium tanks... At 12 cp U have enough vs medium tanks, if not, the game would be already over before reaching 12 cp.

You build to it have something vs those vet3 inf blobs running around in lategame, and to support your T3 units.

Depends on gamemode. 12CP can be around 17mins in 1v1. You would had at most 1 medium tank and probably a bit far away from getting a 2nd one.
Heck at that point, several people are still playing with lights.

I agree. While heavy tanks should not be "call in-win" types of units, they should inspire fear.
You have to save fuel and manpower to get them in. You have to sacrifice mediums to get heavies in and that's where you lose. However, if you managed to hold out and not lose a lot during the time you were saving, you should be able to inspire fear into blobs (right now, I only see massive blobs of infantry on every map at rank 16-18). Furthermore, the 12 CP cost is a good change. So.....
....
!! You have to do damage/kill to get CP and you have to save fuel. For the damage and kills you need tanks (but you're saving fuel), and to save fuel you can't spam mediums. See where I'm going with this? Heavies should be stronger vs infantry than they are now. Pershing got effectively nullified. Tiger is weaker but still mainly used to counter veichles since axis have great infantry support vs blobs (and a big amount of great artilery). IS2 is also meh. KT is still strong. The Pershing got the biggest hit mainly because it's the least survivable one of all the heavy call ins.

However, I have also seen a lot of BS plays in the recent games. My teammates letting the enemy control one side of the map (no defenses or anything) with VP and munition points and then cry when the enemy is spamming arty on them (eg. I was in the middle spawn position and my top teammate let the enemy have 2 munition points and VP on Steppes, at rank 18...).

I'm not an expert and I mainly play COH2 to have fun and have good games, win or lose (even though the toxicity is sometimes high), so I'm not really "The Man" on all of this. However, I am a physicist and I believe I am not of below average IQ so I can notice the patterns. The assymetrical balance is great and all, but everything getting "more in line with" is killing the balance.

Problem with that vision is allied early game has been purposely nerfed to make the game more balance, which is fine. So now staling with dual pak or dual rak (or dual Zis as well) is not so difficult anymore (also with the amount of manpower saved with the continuous price reduction of units and tech patch after patch). Saving for a heavy call-in is a joke at the moment, you have to be really outplayed (or matched vs much better players) to be dried in manpower.
So with that you have to accept that Axis late game got nerfed the same way. Tigers shouldn't be punishing so much anymore, it has to be countered by dual zis/m1 and TDs the same way Axis do it with dual pak vs everything Allied factions can field.

Imo the game is more balanced now but there is definitively a problem with the economy, Cutting off your opponent is not rewarding, decaping a point for a couple of minutes is not rewarding. Those action usually have a cost and that cost is not worth in the current game design. Better roaming the map with a blob and wiping as much squad as possible, only real way to dry your opponent manpower.

As pointed out before in the Winter Balance Preview Mod.

---> Tiger is dead now.

You would have thought they learnt from all the quadruple nerfs of the past but NOPE.

As pointed out before in the Winter Balance Preview Mod.

---> Tiger is dead now.

You would have thought they learnt from all the quadruple nerfs of the past but NOPE.

It literally got a small AoE nerf...
Its as accurate as it was, also explain all the REEEE about "OH NEIN MEIN TIGER PANZER IST TOT JETZT!" while IS-2 affected with the EXACT SAME change didn't have even a single post about it being "dead".

It literally got a small AoE nerf...
Its as accurate as it was, also explain all the REEEE about "OH NEIN MEIN TIGER PANZER IST TOT JETZT!" while IS-2 affected with the EXACT SAME change didn't have even a single post about it being "dead".

Not to Mention the durability nerf the is-2 got as well. Yet no "is-2 ruined now the soviet union will never win!!!!" threads

The nerf on Tiger in AI damage output was more severe since included an AOE nerf from accidnet high value, vet scatter removal and a commander removal for OKW Tiger. The IS-2 can still deal lots of AI damage with vet 1 ability even if main gun does less AI damage.

But that is not what makes a the difference. In WC19 both axis faction relied more heavily on Tiger than allied faction relied on IS-2 and Pershing so the nerf affected OKW/Ostheer allot more than it affected USF/Soviet.

But it to early to tell and will have to wait and see.

On the other, I am not even sure what relevance to a balance thread the number of people who bring up issues has and why it is even brought up.

Does it have any impact on a balance discussion the fact there is one thread about the Tiger, one about the Pershing and none about the IS-2?

Will the balance be better if I start a thread about how bad IS-2 has become?

Lets try focus on the issue and not in irrelevant issues.

It literally got a small AoE nerf...
Its as accurate as it was, also explain all the REEEE about "OH NEIN MEIN TIGER PANZER IST TOT JETZT!" while IS-2 affected with the EXACT SAME change didn't have even a single post about it being "dead".

You mean, on top of the

- scatter nerf
- vet 2 scatter nerf (Something different than the scatter nerf, since the bugged version of tiger was nerfed without taking into consideration that the values it meant to have, never saw gameplay
- cp increase to cp 12.

Yeah, literally just a small nerf, which doesnt effect its peformance at all.

(I am aware, that some changes had to be done; but this solution is not the way to go imo.

You mean, on top of the

- scatter nerf

There was no scatter nerf.
However IS-2 got actual nerf in armor and contrary to tigers vet2, nothing was compensated.

- vet 2 scatter nerf (Something different than the scatter nerf, since the bugged version of tiger was nerfed without taking into consideration that the values it meant to have, never saw gameplay

Compensated by turret rotation buff at vet2 on top of already low base scatter in comparison to other heavies.

- cp increase to cp 12.

As any other heavy - non issue and most certainly non tiger specific one.

There was no scatter nerf.
However IS-2 got actual nerf in armor and contrary to tigers vet2, nothing was compensated.

Compensated by turret rotation buff at vet2 on top of already low base scatter in comparison to other heavies.

As any other heavy - non issue and most certainly non tiger specific one.

Tiger Nerfs:

- AOE, Scatter at vet2, Panzer Commander, CP

IS Nerfs

- AOE, Armour, CP

But that isn't the issue. The issue is OKW late-game was focused on Tiger because nothing else worked well against Allied meta strats. Meanwhile Soviets can fall back on ISU and KV2. Brits didn't get any of their heavy tanks nerfed, Croc, AVRE, Churchill and Comet (even though premium medium) didn't receive performance nerfs. USF never relied on Pershing too much in 2v2 and have a bunch of other stuff to crutch on like Bar Blobs, Pak Howitzer, Scott/Calliope + Jackson spam.

OKW didn't even get to 50% WR with Grand Offensive in the last tournament. They will be worse now, especially with UKF buffs because UKF was always the hardest match-up for OKW (talking mostly about 2v2).

You mean, on top of the

- scatter nerf
- vet 2 scatter nerf (Something different than the scatter nerf, since the bugged version of tiger was nerfed without taking into consideration that the values it meant to have, never saw gameplay
- cp increase to cp 12.

Yeah, literally just a small nerf, which doesnt effect its peformance at all.

(I am aware, that some changes had to be done; but this solution is not the way to go imo.

As Katitof already pointed out: There was no scatter nerf to the Tiger whatsoever. In fact it still has by far the lowest scatter of all heavies (with the exception of the KV2 which is superior below 22 m range), and that is before the vet2 scatter buff it used to have. Now you can argue that losing the vet2 buff does indeed impact the Tiger's AI-performance, but I doubt it needed it in the first place.

There was also no "bugged" version with regard to scatter that could have influenced balancing as you claim (please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary). The only difference between the 'live' pre-WBP Tiger and the one advertised in the respective patchnotes is the reduced near AOE (1 m instead of the intended 0.25 m), which had an almost negligible effect on its overall AI-performance.
As a matter of fact all the AOE-nerf in the WBP achieved is to reduce the effective OHK radius a bit further than what was already planned for the Tiger before, as you can see in the graph below (the area under the dotted line doesn't matter as almost all infantry models have 80 HP).



While this reduces the chances for one-hit wipes of individual models quite significantly, the impact on the average time to nuke a whole squad is tiny.
To put this into perspective, and since you've claimed before the PzIV now performs better than the Tiger in the AI department, here a comparison of how long it takes the PzIV, Pre-WBP and live Tiger to kill a 6-man squad in different formations on average (n = 5,000 tries).



The AI of the Tiger was and still is more than fine, despite the anecdotal evidence and conspiracy theories circling around here obviously.

The only difference between the 'live' pre-WBP Tiger and the one advertised in the respective patchnotes is the reduced near AOE (1 m instead of the intended 0.25 m), which had an almost negligible effect on its overall AI-performance.


The AI of the Tiger was and still is more than fine, despite the anecdotal evidence and conspiracy theories circling around here obviously.

This is exactly what we found in our testing which, admittedly, was much less rigorous/thorough than your own! It seemed to have close to zero impact on the average time to kill. The intention was to reduce the unavoidable bleed that heavies inflicted across the board while still maintaining their strong anti-infantry firepower. They still should and do kill infantry or support weapons when they stick around, but shouldn't be quite as punishing in the first shot out of the fog of war.

There seems to be a placebo effect where people have decided that heavies are bad now and so they see heavies performing badly.

The AI of the Tiger was and still is more than fine, despite the anecdotal evidence and conspiracy theories circling around here obviously.

Great post, finally facts instead of opinions. Thx!

Tiger Nerfs:

- AOE, Scatter at vet2, Panzer Commander, CP

IS Nerfs

- AOE, Armour, CP

But that isn't the issue. The issue is OKW late-game was focused on Tiger because nothing else worked well against Allied meta strats. Meanwhile Soviets can fall back on ISU and KV2. Brits didn't get any of their heavy tanks nerfed, Croc, AVRE, Churchill and Comet (even though premium medium) didn't receive performance nerfs. USF never relied on Pershing too much in 2v2 and have a bunch of other stuff to crutch on like Bar Blobs, Pak Howitzer, Scott/Calliope + Jackson spam.

OKW didn't even get to 50% WR with Grand Offensive in the last tournament. They will be worse now, especially with UKF buffs because UKF was always the hardest match-up for OKW (talking mostly about 2v2).

Probably because tiger and other heavies were reliably two shotting anything that moves at 45 range while comet and Churchill's apart from the croc are mediocre at best.

It's not like elite armor and HEAT struggled vs KV-2s or ISU before the patch, I imagine it's a solid fallback if you know your opponent is heavy stalling.

Dane casted a game last week of a KV-
2 staller getting spanked by JP, KT and HEAT