Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed

Fun fact! The t34 can't ram with engine damage...

A T-34 will ram even with engine damage.

It can not start ram "run" with engine damage but it will ram if the engine damage happens during the run.

I'm gonna say the same thing I said months ago and I was ignored because I was not rank 1 but neither is anyone on the balance team so I'm gonna keep saying it:

Ramming a full health heavy tank should not result in a stun of any kind.

Put a threshold at like 90% HP. If the heavy tank is like 90% health then stun should have absolutely no effect whatsoever. This will preserve the ram and off map combo as a very viable tactic, so no big nerf, but it will allow the Axis player to avoid losing his heavy by being conservative with it and preventing it from being exposed when damaged. This will end the cheese of a t34 suddenly appearing for a suicidal sudden ram and ending a heavy instantly.

This is BY FAR the best solution.

I'm gonna say the same thing I said months ago and I was ignored because I was not rank 1 but neither is anyone on the balance team so I'm gonna keep saying it:

Ramming a full health heavy tank should not result in a stun of any kind.

Put a threshold at like 90% HP. If the heavy tank is like 90% health then stun should have absolutely no effect whatsoever. This will preserve the ram and off map combo as a very viable tactic, so no big nerf, but it will allow the Axis player to avoid losing his heavy by being conservative with it and preventing it from being exposed when damaged. This will end the cheese of a t34 suddenly appearing for a suicidal sudden ram and ending a heavy instantly.

This is BY FAR the best solution.

im going to post the exact same bullshit excuse that i got when discussing counter barrage.

why remove something from that game that hasnt been a problem since nearly 5 years?

sounds like a L2P issue to me, just screen your tanks. ramming is the only good thing a t 34 can do.

removing the stun will make the t 34 useless

In general, "1-click" counters need to be removed. Ram+Off map, like any other "1-click" combo, is OP by any definition; once clicked, there's no counter. The targeted vehicle will take massive amounts of damage - often enough to destroy a 720mp/260f/15 point vehicle.

Anything that powerful needs to have counter-play available AFTER the attacker has "clicked". In most situations, powerful abilities/combos like this have counter-play options - this is one of the few exceptions. The problem is, it's the combination of two abilities that makes it so devastating; so we're left in a situation where one needs to be nerfed a disproportionate amount in relation to its individual power.

My preference would be a ram nerf, as the off-map is currently in-line with similar abilities. Ram should likely be adjusted to have either much less range, be a "skill-shot" (i.e. straight line), or (as suggested by Stormjager) have different effects based on the targets remaining HP.

why remove something from that game that hasnt been a problem since nearly 5 years?

The game has been changed and improved over the years, so the bar for 'balance' or 'quality' has risen. What was once acceptable isn't anymore. Ram+Off map was likely always OP, it just wasn't as OP as other things at the time, so it wasn't discussed that much.

Furthermore, Stormjager's suggestion doesn't remove stun - it just changes it so that the target vehicle needs to be damage first. Ramming a 50%hp vehicle, for example, would behave exactly as it does now.

Just make it a vet 1 ability. Isn't a shock anymore and there's even more risk to the decision.

Blablabla shouldn't be able to kill my epic tiger!!!1111 isn't justification for deleting an ability from the game, especially one on the T-34/76, which struggles enough to find usefulness in the late game.

Blablabla shouldn't be able to kill my epic tiger!!!1111 isn't justification for deleting an ability from the game, especially one on the T-34/76, which struggles enough to find usefulness in the late game.

Units and abilities insta-wiping stuff with no counterplay has been a justification for a lot of nerfs over the years, and they've all been well received and accepted by the community.

Units and abilities insta-wiping stuff with no counterplay

Which is why you give counterplay by making it harder to get the same ram effect and allowing the Axis player to protect his heavy.

Units and abilities insta-wiping stuff with no counterplay has been a justification for a lot of nerfs over the years, and they've all been well received and accepted by the community.

Counterplay to T-34 ram is just screening your tanks, and that'd be even easier if it were a vet ability since you'd be completely aware of the danger.

At that point it would be like saying there is no counterplay to teller mines instakilling LVs.

In general, "1-click" counters need to be removed. Ram+Off map, like any other "1-click" combo, is OP by any definition; once clicked, there's no counter. The targeted vehicle will take massive amounts of damage - often enough to destroy a 720mp/260f/15 point vehicle.

Anything that powerful needs to have counter-play available AFTER the attacker has "clicked". In most situations, powerful abilities/combos like this have counter-play options - this is one of the few exceptions. The problem is, it's the combination of two abilities that makes it so devastating; so we're left in a situation where one needs to be nerfed a disproportionate amount in relation to its individual power.

My preference would be a ram nerf, as the off-map is currently in-line with similar abilities. Ram should likely be adjusted to have either much less range, be a "skill-shot" (i.e. straight line), or (as suggested by Stormjager) have different effects based on the targets remaining HP.



The game has been changed and improved over the years, so the bar for 'balance' or 'quality' has risen. What was once acceptable isn't anymore. Ram+Off map was likely always OP, it just wasn't as OP as other things at the time, so it wasn't discussed that much.

Furthermore, Stormjager's suggestion doesn't remove stun - it just changes it so that the target vehicle needs to be damage first. Ramming a 50%hp vehicle, for example, would behave exactly as it does now.

Might aswell just give the t34 an actual usefull ability , sov okw and usf and tbh i always laugh when some idiot makes a t 34

Counterplay to T-34 ram is just screening your tanks, and that'd be even easier if it were a vet ability since you'd be completely aware of the danger.

No, it's not. Firstly, on a lot of maps, this isn't possible. Any corners that offer sight blocking mean that you can't screen. Secondly, that's not how 'counter-play' works.

Counter-play works in this order:
#1. Oppenent does something
#2. you have the oppertunity to prevent it
#3. Something ether happens or doesn't, based on #2

Every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design. Ram+Off map, and a few other abilities, are fundamentally over-powered because they flip the order in which #1 and #2 occur.

No, it's not. Firstly, on a lot of maps, this isn't possible. Any corners that offer sight blocking mean that you can't screen. Secondly, that's not how 'counter-play' works.

Counter-play works in this order:
#1. Oppenent does something
#2. you have the oppertunity to prevent it
#3. Something ether happens or doesn't, based on #2

Every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design. Ram+Off map, and a few other abilities, are fundamentally over-powered because they flip the order in which #1 and #2 occur.

Respectfully,

1. Opponent buys a T-34.
2. You are aware of it because it now has to vet up to access the ram ability anyway.
3. You either lose your tank by being retarded or you don't.

I am not aware of any maps where infantry cannot fit into areas that tanks can. The absolute only things I can think of as far as death corners go are some of the maps with big walls (that can be crushed by heavy tanks or weaponry), and all of these can be investigated beforehand.

...In much the same way that teller mines can be detected by screening LVs with mine detectors.

Hell, I am pretty sure you can stop the ram mid-motion with a snare as well, and if not, that could also be an option for balancing.

T34 Ram + IL2 bombing is a noble act compared to T34 Ram and IL2 rocket strafe.

Respectfully,

1. Opponent buys a T-34.
2. You are aware of it because it has to vet up to access the ram ability anyway.
3. You either lose your tank by being retarded or you don't.

I am not aware of any maps where infantry cannot fit into areas that tanks can. The absolute only things I can think of as far as death corners go are some of the maps with big walls (that can be crushed by heavy tanks or weaponry), and all of these can be investigated beforehand.

...In much the same way that teller mines can be detected by screening LVs with mine detectors.

That's not counter-play; counter-play is moment-to-moment.

skip to 4:35

As for screening with your infantry; while this is possible, it's not always viable. If your opponent creates an area that is impassable by infantry (i.e. with MGs, AI-vehicles, etc.), the intented counter is supposed to be a vehicle of your own. Which is where the current problem arises.

That's not counter-play; counter-play is moment-to-moment.

skip to 4:35

As for screening with your infantry; while this is possible, it's not always viable. If your opponent creates an area that is impassable by infantry (i.e. with MGs, AI-vehicles, etc.), the intented counter is supposed to be a vehicle of your own. Which is where the current problem arises.

MOBA gameplay doesn't even come close to what goes on in CoH2. If we were to accept this version of the definition of counterplay, the previously mentioned Teller mines have none whatsoever: you fall victim to them in the same way (and FAR more rapidly) than T-34 ram AND require a very specific unit and upgrade to detect and defeat.

So, respectfully again, this isn't an acceptable argument.

If the opponent has created a situation where infantry CANNOT screen that area either by MG positions or some other method, it is your fault for taking the gamble and attacking anyway, without any support. The EXACT same thing could be said of a minefield.

The intended counter to positioning like that is combined arms, or at least that is what everyone here keeps saying when AT gets brought up.

MOBA gameplay doesn't even come close to what goes on in CoH2. If we were to accept this version of the definition of counterplay, the previously mentioned Teller mines have none whatsoever: you fall victim to them in the same way (and FAR more rapidly) than T-34 ram AND require a very specific unit and upgrade to detect and defeat.

So, respectfully again, this isn't an acceptable argument.

If the opponent has created a situation where infantry CANNOT screen that area either by MG positions or some other method, it is your fault for taking the gamble and attacking anyway. The EXACT same thing could be said of a minefield.

Counter-play is a universal concept, inherent in any well designed games (it's very prevalent in CoH2). As I said before, every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design. The issue is, there's a few outliers that haven't been fixed - such as this one.

As for teller mines do have counter-play; setup time, minesweeprs, and vulnerability. Minesweepers completely negate mines. Mines have a setup time, which means (if seen) its very obvious where they are, and lastly, they are vulnerable to attack. Attack-Ground will destroy mines, even if you don't know they're there.

Counter-play is a universal concept, inherent in any well designed games (it's very prevalent in CoH2). As I said before, every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design.

As for teller mines do have counter-play; setup time, minesweeprs, and vulnerability. Minesweepers completely negate mines. Mines have a setup time, which means (if seen) its very obvious where they are, and lastly, they are vulnerable to attack. Attack-Ground will destroy mines, even if you don't know they're there.

If you know where the mine is, and only if you have sweepers upgraded and on a unit in the area to detect the mine.

The counterplay you talk about regarding being there when the mine is being laid in the first place, or detecting them later on with your (likely) sole minesweeper squad is exactly synonymous with discovering and screening the T-34 in the first place, except that this does not require rare specialized units.

If you consider that sort of preparation (and screening) of teller mines to be counterplay, you have to concede that the same can and does apply to T-34s... It also does not work with the 'moment-to-moment' MOBA definition presented earlier.

If you know where the mine is, and only if you have sweepers upgraded and on a unit in the area to detect the mine.

The counterplay you talk about regarding being there when the mine is being laid in the first place, or detecting them later on with your (likely) sole minesweeper squad is exactly synonymous with discovering and screening the T-34 in the first place, except that this does not require rare specialized units.

If you consider that sort of preparation (and screening) of teller mines to be counterplay, you have to concede that the same can and does apply to T-34s... It also does not work with the 'instantaneous' MOBA definition presented earlier.

The two aren't really comparable; you're comparing the use of an ability (ram) to a static unit (mine). Let's look at the 'counter-play' order.

Mine:
#1. Place mine
#2. Opponent could detect/destroy mine
#3. Mine detonates or is disabled

Ram:
#1. Click Ram
#2. Ram can't be stopped once clicked
#3. Ram hits


Again, every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design.

The tree blocking the forest.

T34 Ram + IL2 bombing is a noble act compared to T34 Ram and IL2 rocket strafe.

This.

I suggested replacing the AT strafe for the AI strafe coming from the Guards. Now in order to do the same combo, you would need a Guard squad nearby to do the same.

All other combos from Soviets takes longer to arrive and are more expensive (IL2 bombing strike) and are not as guided as the IL2 strafe.