What if we made the Flame Hetzer a useful unit?

You keep repeating this and yet you've never really offered anything resembling a concrete proposal on how to actually "make it useful", while considering its performance across multiple game modes, outside of "just put it into some meh commanders", again without any details on which ones and what it should replace then (and removing Panzer Authorization but that was specifically decided against already). Problem-centric attitude gets us nowhere. Come up with proper solutions instead.


Also in regards to the Hetzer frontally wiping an ATG; the trick is to attack ground the gun for 1-2 flame bursts and then back up and let the high DOT damage kill the crew or at least force it to retreat on low health, which is easy to achieve when the Hetzer is supported by some infantry. And hope that its 15 target size allows it to dodge a shell or two. I doubt it can reliably take on double ATGs though, but I wouldn't expect a 90 fuel vehicle to do so anyway.

On some maps, the Hetzer is already difficult to deal with. For example, the south part of Red Ball has enough site-blockers that you can't have 2 ATG's per lane, and a single ATG plus infantry can't deal with a Hetzer. I've played against a couple players who were top 50 in 4v4's that used Hetzers, normally backed up with 2 raketens so you couldn't use a Sherman or T34/76 against it. It's much harder to fight it if you've been behind in fuel and don't have a TD.

If I had any complaints about Feuerstorm, it would be that I would like to see the off-map arty reliably wipe howitzers. It should and right now doesn't seem very good for the cost.

Most problem of Flame Hetzer is "flame"

Give a normal canon to Hetzer

Flame dmg is fine now

I agree, I don't think the Hetzer is necessarily bad at what its supposed to do but it comes far to late to ever have an impact unless you are very far ahead of your opponent. Maybe reducing its fuel cost to 80 and maybe making it a call-in while still requiring Tier 4 and Panzer Authorization would make it come a bit earlier? Ostwind in Scavenge could probably also be a call-in but still require T4 and PA. Otherwise the Hetzer can stay at 90 fuel if it becomes too big of a problem in bigger games where the economy is inflated a bit. Not sure if having CP requirements stacked on top of these tanks would be good or not.

Ok so then let's keep the Flame Hetzer dead just because it's somehow unbeatable on "urban" maps. Which maps qualify as urban by the way? Oh wait there are no "urban" maps in 1v1 and 2v2. You could argue Lierneux is somewhat urban but everyone has it in the veto list anyway.

Also I don't see how a Hetzer could be so OP in an urban setting when it's so vulnerable to getting flanked, snared and killed by a single ATG.

In this imagined scenario you're putting combined arms of infantry and support weapons vs a single hetzer...

So where are your supporting units? MP40 volks that can smoke ATG? Running in and shielding vs closing in AT penals? No?

You calculate fuel to rush the unit in quickest route on paper. but most games do not run that way, mech truck LV builds are still king to build a early fuel lead and hetzer slots in nicely with luch and puma builds to wipe support weapons.

Maybe watch some top 1vs1s because actually this doctrine gets use on cqb maps

Maybe watch some top 1vs1s because actually this doctrine gets use on cqb maps

Other than meme games it's never used. It was used in one game during 67 OKW games in the last big 1v1 tournament. Don't fool yourself, no one will go Flame Hetzer in a serious game.

The Flame Hetzer is excellent.

Feuersturm is meh. It's got a lot of redundant flame abilities, the halftrack is trash, and there's a certain antisynergy between its Battlegroup preference and the Flame Hetzer, which likes AT support that can keep up with it.

Maybe watch some top 1vs1s because actually this doctrine gets use on cqb maps

As someone who extensively used Feurestorm on the lv17 1v1 level and even used it in Kimbo's tournament, my opinion of the doctrine is the following:

Flamethrower Spios: Meme levels of useless, unless vs USF without field defenses ability to lay mines.
MP40 Volks: Good but you can only get 1 or 2max unless you wanna lose the game to MGs. Really strong if you get close or on retreat path and very muni intensive.

Opel: Amazing

Incindiary rounds: You can't afford the munitions. Great vs sim city which noone uses.

Flame Hetzer: Very niche. For a bit more fuel you get the P4 workhorse that can deal with anything short of heavies.

Rocket strike: Great vs concentrated support weapons, but not very wide which means it's niche. Also expensive af.


Overall mediocre in 1v1s. You can get tonnes more value picking another early elite unit doctrine. Not worth picking over Kpen offensive in live, or Breakthrough/Luftwaffe in the preview.

Mediums can arrive 1-2 minute after a Hezter.

And you can totally lose a game in that 1-2 minutes, especially if you're already behind. Buffing it'd be a great way for a better player to steamroll a worse player even more than they already would anyway, without actually making it that useful in an even fight. That said, I think it's kind of meh.

As someone who extensively used Feurestorm on the lv17 1v1 level and even used it in Kimbo's tournament, my opinion of the doctrine is the following:

Flamethrower Spios: Meme levels of useless, unless vs USF without field defenses ability to lay mines.
MP40 Volks: Good but you can only get 1 or 2max unless you wanna lose the game to MGs. Really strong if you get close or on retreat path and very muni intensive.

Opel: Amazing

Incindiary rounds: You can't afford the munitions. Great vs sim city which noone uses.

Flame Hetzer: Very niche. For a bit more fuel you get the P4 workhorse that can deal with anything short of heavies.

Rocket strike: Great vs concentrated support weapons, but not very wide which means it's niche. Also expensive af.


Overall mediocre in 1v1s. You can get tonnes more value picking another early elite unit doctrine. Not worth picking over Kpen offensive in live, or Breakthrough/Luftwaffe in the preview.

I've never found the incendiary rounds or sturm flamers the least bit frightening at all.

The incendiary rounds just don't do much damage to anything but I guess they at least cover a decent area. Maybe buff the firerate on the barrage to make it saturate an area quicker? I've found that a lot of times the shells will just scatter and miss and I'll just walk around them or pull back without ever even taking damage.

Sturm flamers seem like a weird design decision too since volks already have a flame-related green cover counter that you don't have to give up a minesweeper and repair speed bonus for.

The really nice thing about the rockets is that they are pretty much guaranteed to destroy team weapons fully. Definitely useful if you aren't in a position to destroy/salvage them yourself.

Other than meme games it's never used. It was used in one game during 67 OKW games in the last big 1v1 tournament. Don't fool yourself, no one will go Flame Hetzer in a serious game.

The doctrine got plenty of use before heavy tanks were buffed into space and picking anything else but grand operations became a meme

You can't really use last tourney as a example. Before that patch jove, limbo and price all used it in top games casted by Dane

MP40 volks are awesome when you can just smoke spam your way through allied lines and kill everything. Hetzer fits into mech builds well and you can follow up quickly with a panther to shut down his medium counter. It is a meme unit but is definitely strong for the price point. P4 can't nearly punish ATGs as hard

And you can totally lose a game in that 1-2 minutes, especially if you're already behind. Buffing it'd be a great way for a better player to steamroll a worse player even more than they already would anyway, without actually making it that useful in an even fight. That said, I think it's kind of meh.


I've never found the incendiary rounds or sturm flamers the least bit frightening at all.

The incendiary rounds just don't do much damage to anything but I guess they at least cover a decent area. Maybe buff the firerate on the barrage to make it saturate an area quicker? I've found that a lot of times the shells will just scatter and miss and I'll just walk around them or pull back without ever even taking damage.

Sturm flamers seem like a weird design decision too since volks already have a flame-related green cover counter that you don't have to give up a minesweeper and repair speed bonus for.

The really nice thing about the rockets is that they are pretty much guaranteed to destroy team weapons fully. Definitely useful if you aren't in a position to destroy/salvage them yourself.

Lieg rounds are a counter pick ability to wipe mortar pits and Soviet FHQ, flamer sturms aren't world-beaters but are there to cover the lack of flame nades after mp40s. They also punish Brits pretty hard that are glued to cover and lack the cqb power.

Rest of the doctrine I would say is great. Just it doesn't have a tiger at the end so struggles to make meta.

And you can totally lose a game in that 1-2 minutes, especially if you're already behind. Buffing it'd be a great way for a better player to steamroll a worse player even more than they already would anyway, without actually making it that useful in an even fight. That said, I think it's kind of meh.
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And one will lose the game if enemy mediums show and one does not have any vehicles to counter them because you have invested their fuel in a purely AI vehicle.

The doctrine got plenty of use before heavy tanks were buffed into space and picking anything else but grand operations became a meme

You can't really use last tourney as a example. Before that patch jove, limbo and price all used it in top games casted by Dane

MP40 volks are awesome when you can just smoke spam your way through allied lines and kill everything. Hetzer fits into mech builds well and you can follow up quickly with a panther to shut down his medium counter. It is a meme unit but is definitely strong for the price point. P4 can't nearly punish ATGs as hard

MP-40 VG are probably one of the weakest CQB units and that is why people only get 1-2 of them.

They should simply follow UKF example and become a separate unit instead of an upgrade.

flamer sturms aren't world-beaters but are there to cover the lack of flame nades after mp40s.

???

You don’t need flame nades with Volks, they have the really good fragmentation grenade and can just run up to a garrison and shoot, not to mention smoke. Flamer is prohibited on your starting Spios or you’re gonna suffern from mines, meaning you have to pay 300mp extra to get a 2nd squad to sweep mines, meaning the first spio squad becomes basically your 5th infantry unit which could instead be an elite call in like an Officier or a Fallschirmjäger squad, so definitely not worth it.

Rest of the doctrine I would say is great. Just it doesn't have a tiger at the end so struggles to make meta.

If this was a UKF doctrine you’d be laughing at anyone who selected it.

Also it pales in comparison to Breakhrough and Luftwaffe GF for 1v1.

3v3/4v4 don’t make me laugh, it’s nowhere near the Breakthrough/Spec Ops duo.

MP-40 VG are probably one of the weakest CQB units and that is why people only get 1-2 of them.

They’re really not weak. The problem is if you get mp40s for your 3rd or even 4th Volks squad you’re gonna lose the game to multiple MGs or force concentration in green cover (aka soviets). It’s too much to have an all CQC army.

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They’re really not weak. The problem is if you get mp40s for your 3rd or even 4th Volks squad you’re gonna lose to multiple MGs or force concentration in green cover (aka soviets). It’s too much to have an all CQC army.

Now read more carefully I did not say they are weak I said there are one of the weakest since the rest can get weapon upgrade on top of the smgs.

They are weaker than than Assault grenadier/engineer/IS and weaker than cav riflemen just to mention few.

And one will lose the game if enemy mediums show and one does not have any vehicles to counter them because you have invested their fuel in a purely AI vehicle.

Double AT gun from any faction has been able to counter mediums for a pretty long time now. At no point have you needed a vehicle to counter mediums

It definitely makes it easier if you a a vehicle with AT, but 2x AT guns can still do really well, especially if you have something to bait with

Double AT gun from any faction has been able to counter mediums for a pretty long time now.

Not for okw and especially against Comet/Churchill/T34-85/Dozer M4/Ez8/KV1/KV8. I put the KV1 and Churchill here due to cost very near medium tank cost.

Not for okw and especially against Comet/Churchill/T34-85/Dozer M4/Ez8/KV1/KV8. I put the KV1 and Churchill here due to cost very near medium tank cost.

I was referring to stock mediums exclusively. All of the ones you just listed would give the Hetzer an even larger time window to operate without challenge in due to higher cost. 2x Rak will do just fine against any of the 3 stock allied mediums, and will still do pretty well against most of those except maybe churchill and Kv1

Kv1 and Churchill would be awful at fighting the hetzer, and most certainly do not count as medium tanks. Choosing one of those for your first tank while there's a hetzer on the field already makes no sense at all. You'd be waiting longer for a tank that has no chance of chasing it down...

Big surprise but there are other modes as well. Which also happen to be more popular. Essen Steelworks, Ettelbruck Station, La Gleize, Angermunde, Lorch Assault, Lienne Forrest are all (semi)urban maps on which Feuersturm shines. Not every doctrine or unit needs to be (or can be) viable across all modes and that's fine.

Yep. When i played against Axis teams in those maps. The okw player gets fast double hetzer against Usf plays. And we are rekt on the back foot until 60 Td comes to help

Ok so then let's keep the Flame Hetzer dead just because it's somehow unbeatable on "urban" maps. Which maps qualify as urban by the way? Oh wait there are no "urban" maps in 1v1 and 2v2. You could argue Lierneux is somewhat urban but everyone has it in the veto list anyway.

Also I don't see how a Hetzer could be so OP in an urban setting when it's so vulnerable to getting flanked, snared and killed by a single ATG.

Well, Sander is right about Hetzer's role, additionally it's one of very few dedicated AI vehicles in OKW roster that survives the chaos of 2v2 and 3v3 mid-lategame, doctrinal Ostwind is the other one, but it has significantly less survivability and urban themed maps (or maps with bunch of cover) favor Hetzer. It's also pretty cheap and a part of well-themed doctrine. Think of it as AI supplement and not replacement for P4.

Not for okw and especially against Comet/Churchill/T34-85/Dozer M4/Ez8/KV1/KV8. I put the KV1 and Churchill here due to cost very near medium tank cost.

Wut. 1 raketen is trash, 2 are cancer. I fee like I see double rak just as much as other double AT guns and you cn be way more ballsy with them because they can just retreat. Super easy to 2 burst mediums with.