What if we made the Flame Hetzer a useful unit?

I really think the Flame Hetzer is a fun unit to use and more diversity is a good thing, so why not try to make going for Flame Hetzer a more viable choice?

The unit is already pretty good as it is in terms of power and durability. It has the survivability of a standard medium tank for 90 fuel and a decent flame thrower that does enough damage. The reason why it's still a meme unit is the high tech cost and being limited to one doctrine. Feuerstorm is IMO very questionable and I really don't like using any of the abilities other than the Stuka off-map.

It's very risky to invest 90 fuel into a unit that can't even defend itself against Stuart, AEC or T70. Is it really necessary to lock it behind a fully upgraded OKW T4? I know the balance team thought about this already but why not try locking it behind T4 and remove the need for the Panzer upgrade?

If this isn't possible why not add it to another doctrine? There are plenty of meh OKW doctrines that could do with an upgrade. The Flame Hetzer is too cool of a unit to just let it rot away. We don't get new units for COH2 anymore, might aswell try to make the existing ones viable.

I’d like to see the Ostwind made relevant in the Scavenge doctrine. Currently it’s not worth building. I’d like to see it in T4 but not require upgrade.

The Hetzer could probably benefit from that as well,

Feuersturm and a Hetzer rush are incredibly good in urban maps and quite frankly nearly unbeatable. Not every doctrine has to be good across all modes. It's a specialized doctrine and it fulfils its role very well.


The Hetzer without Panzer Authorization would likely be too powerful because it 1v1s ATGs and AT infantry and Allied light won't be able to take it out with a Volksgrenadier and/or Raketen around. Especially not in urban maps. Its current timing is already good when rushed (with good fuel control) and it has considerable shock value.

Both Hezter and Ostwind should become call in units (specialized units are fine as call-ins).

As for the Hezter I would suggest:

Righer rear armor since the unit expose it side to fire
Removing dot damage re balance auto fire damage and moving dot to skill shot or timed ability (same goes for all vehicle flamers).
Lower build time if remain a build able unit.

Feuersturm and a Hetzer rush are incredibly good in urban maps and quite frankly nearly unbeatable. Not every doctrine has to be good across all modes. It's a specialized doctrine and it fulfils its role very well.


The Hetzer without Panzer Authorization would likely be too powerful because it 1v1s ATGs and AT infantry and Allied light won't be able to take it out with a Volksgrenadier and/or Raketen around. Especially not in urban maps. Its current timing is already good when rushed (with good fuel control) and it has considerable shock value.

Mediums can arrive 1-2 minute after a Hezter.

Hetzer... if it would be as OP as other units the balancing tears would get big, because an open eye is defenseless without closed eyelids.

I’d like to see the Ostwind made relevant in the Scavenge doctrine. Currently it’s not worth building. I’d like to see it in T4 but not require upgrade.

The Hetzer could probably benefit from that as well,

One good way would be to change it with Tiger... but now we got this stupid new commander with that unit...

There could be a funny mechanism you need to salvage to get access to special abilities etc. a ambush for infantry etc.

There would be so many cool things to make.

Feuersturm and a Hetzer rush are incredibly good in urban maps and quite frankly nearly unbeatable. Not every doctrine has to be good across all modes. It's a specialized doctrine and it fulfils its role very well.


The Hetzer without Panzer Authorization would likely be too powerful because it 1v1s ATGs and AT infantry and Allied light won't be able to take it out with a Volksgrenadier and/or Raketen around. Especially not in urban maps. Its current timing is already good when rushed (with good fuel control) and it has considerable shock value.

that´s why we see this alot in compedetive play... oh wait.


Why the hell should i not just wait for the P4?

Well spending the fuel to unlock the tanks or using a flame hetzer if enemy infantry is oppressing at the field and i might not be able to wait for p4 etc. Hetzer would be a great choice as it is more durable than luchs.
I never use it not even vs bots because its way too late

Its a situational specialist unit in german doctrine that doesn't have a unit named "tiger".
Ofc its not going to seem useful for your average axis player.

The Flame Hetzer was a bad option (although not a bad unit) when OKW was reliant on T3 for tank defence.

Now that the Rak is really, really good, it's a much stronger pick.

Feuersturm and a Hetzer rush are incredibly good in urban maps and quite frankly nearly unbeatable. Not every doctrine has to be good across all modes. It's a specialized doctrine and it fulfils its role very well.


The Hetzer without Panzer Authorization would likely be too powerful because it 1v1s ATGs and AT infantry and Allied light won't be able to take it out with a Volksgrenadier and/or Raketen around. Especially not in urban maps. Its current timing is already good when rushed (with good fuel control) and it has considerable shock value.

Ok so then let's keep the Flame Hetzer dead just because it's somehow unbeatable on "urban" maps. Which maps qualify as urban by the way? Oh wait there are no "urban" maps in 1v1 and 2v2. You could argue Lierneux is somewhat urban but everyone has it in the veto list anyway.

Also I don't see how a Hetzer could be so OP in an urban setting when it's so vulnerable to getting flanked, snared and killed by a single ATG.

Its current timing is already good when rushed (with good fuel control) and it has considerable shock value.

How is the timing good when it arrives only 2 minutes before OKW P4?

I calculated it and I don't see how it arrives particularly fast. (including starting fuel)

For Ostheer rushing out a Ostwind takes 255 fuel if you don't skip any tiers. Even less if you skip them with Ass Gren or Osttruppen strat. You can get an Ostwind for 225 fuel that way.

For OKW it takes 270 fuel to get a Flame Hetzer.

How is this amazing timing WTF? The Ostwind is way stronger because it can fight off Allied LVs on it's own, has a turret and acts as AA too.

The reason it is so rare is that for only 50 fuel more the Panzer IV does great anti infantry and decent anti tank. The OKW Panzer IV is THE power spike of OKW. Going Flammpanzer usually is a double edged sword. Going for a Flammpanzer in a competitive game means you cripple yourself in the upcoming first tank engagement.

Don't know what to do with the unit. Maybe make it more expesive and let it deflect some shots more so it becomes viable in the lategame.

Which maps qualify as urban by the way? Oh wait there are no "urban" maps in 1v1 and 2v2.

Big surprise but there are other modes as well. Which also happen to be more popular. Essen Steelworks, Ettelbruck Station, La Gleize, Angermunde, Lorch Assault, Lienne Forrest are all (semi)urban maps on which Feuersturm shines. Not every doctrine or unit needs to be (or can be) viable across all modes and that's fine.

Big surprise but there are other modes as well. Which also happen to be more popular. Essen Steelworks, Ettelbruck Station, La Gleize, Angermunde, Lorch Assault, Lienne Forrest are all (semi)urban maps on which Feuersturm shines.

Almost all of these maps are so bad they should just be deleted from the game. So you are telling me we cant make the Flame Hetzer useful because of fucking Ettebruck and Lorch Assault? Wow.

I’d like to see the Ostwind made relevant in the Scavenge doctrine. Currently it’s not worth building. I’d like to see it in T4 but not require upgrade.

The Hetzer could probably benefit from that as well,

Admittedly, I'm not super high ranked with OKW, but I find the OKW ostwind to be quite powerful. If you are ahead in the fuel game it's a great finisher, like the Centaur is for the Brits. Of course, you are not going to build one if you are not ahead on fuel, but the same applies to other AI tanks like the Centaur or KV8, but that doesn't mean the units are bad.

On topic of the Hetzer.. I think it can be shifted to only require T4 and not Panzer authorization. Unlike the Centaur and Ostwind it can't defend itself against light AT vehicles and it doesn't have a turret to run circles around early AT guns.

Ok so then let's keep the Flame Hetzer dead just because it's somehow unbeatable on "urban" maps. Which maps qualify as urban by the way? Oh wait there are no "urban" maps in 1v1 and 2v2. You could argue Lierneux is somewhat urban but everyone has it in the veto list anyway.

Also I don't see how a Hetzer could be so OP in an urban setting when it's so vulnerable to getting flanked, snared and killed by a single ATG.

If you can't see how a strongly armored vehicle armed with a flamethrower can dominate a map with a lot of cover and houses, can't help.
As far as I played the game, Ostwind isn't that deadly once you are in cover or garrisoned.

Admittedly, I'm not super high ranked with OKW, but I find the OKW ostwind to be quite powerful.

Ehhh it's not bad it's like kind of above average, which is fine don't get me wrong, but the issue is you get barely any value out of it unless you're ahead in the tank race since you generally struggle with relying on raketens unlike Ost who can get double pak40s and be fine. Basically you want a P4 or going for a Tiger/KT and the Ostwind at full T4 is just 40fuel cheaper than a tank with slightly less AI but a tonne more AT, so it's quite a struggle to get it on the field. Once you do it's fine, like late game if you have an Ostwind, P4 and Panther out you're fine, but getting there is the issue since you kinda have to get the Ostwind last, especially with heavies lurking around.

In all honestly, in a perfect world I'd like to see the Ostwind be a 5CP call in but limited to 1 time call in and 120fuel. That way you can rush it but it sets you back quite a bit and if you lose it you can't get it back.

Personally I failed to make use of Scavenge, JLI don't have the alpha damage I want in blobs and Ostwinds are too hard to get on the field.

Also it's for the same reason I wouldn't compare it with the Centaur. As Brits you have double 6pounders which are really good and the Sniper which can stun any vehicle, so you have way more of an opportunity to get an early centaur and get some wipes. Ostwind suffers from raketens being bad.

Almost all of these maps are so bad they should just be deleted from the game.

Regardless of your opinion, Essen Steelworks, Ettelbruck Station, Angermunde and Lienne Forrest are all popular 3v3 and 4v4 maps. La Gleize and Lorch Assault aren't far behind. There's plenty of opportunity for Feuersturm to dominate on these regularly played maps, and making it stronger for 1v1/2v2 would likely break it in 3v3/4v4.