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Elite Troops Doctrine

13 Nov 2013, 16:15 PM
#21
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 16:03 PMGreeb
Now is easier than ever to have vetted tanks with blietzkrieg.

I don't really like that mechanic, and it's one of the things I most despised in vCoH, the stupid german veterancy system.


Very good point, and one that speaks in fsvor of restricting it to infantry as Gustav suggested.
Vehicles vet too "hard" in comparison. Especially with Osts excellent V1 abilities like Blitz and TW.
And also, at that point, once youve tiered and got the vehicles out, the fuel cost is less significant than it is otherwise.

Albeit, as I said earlier, at Muni cost, instead of fuel.
13 Nov 2013, 16:52 PM
#22
avatar of Eupolemos
Donator 33

Posts: 368

This commander's VetMeNow ability will become seriously imbalanced lategame, I predict. Often, lategame becomes a MP-war, and this ability breaks that.

As soon as the initial teching is over, all Grens will be vet3 at once. +30% armor +40% accuracy (damage) +20% less cooldown = roughly 220% efficiency. For 55MP/20f you get 120% extra grenpower. Multiply by added LMG efficiency and the added bonus of better popcap/pewpew ratio, you've got a load of horseshit.

I can see it being tremendously satisfying to plan and play though.
13 Nov 2013, 16:59 PM
#23
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

They haven't even added a cooldown to the ability, I mean seriously...
13 Nov 2013, 17:13 PM
#24
avatar of Slippyer1

Posts: 37

How susceptible is this new tiger ace too engine damage?

Seems whenever I play the germans, they get engine damage really easy. An immobile ace is not exactly that fantastic and it cannot cover 3 VP's at once.

Also, take out any engineers first and it surely cannot last that long?
13 Nov 2013, 17:44 PM
#25
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

I think the Tiger Ace is just like a normal tiger as far as engine damage is. Front armor can deflect rams, rear armor cannot.

But unlike vTiger, it can kill T-34s in two shots.

The Tiger Ace can destroy buildings with remarkable speed due to its fast fire rate and elefant level damage. (5.5 sec., 320 damage)
13 Nov 2013, 17:49 PM
#26
avatar of niksa

Posts: 64

I really want to love this game but I cant,this is the only game in my life
that I didnt like but i still give it a chance.
What I think about this new meta I think is such a bull.... no skill nothing just so uncomperable to vcoh.
This new commanders are really p2win first is this one op for german and
other one is soviet fuel boost i mean u can come whit t70 in early stage of the game like u come whit m8 in vcoh when wher start to resarch t2 upgrade that is so big window to push off german player from the map
13 Nov 2013, 17:50 PM
#27
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

I think the Tiger Ace is just like a normal tiger as far as engine damage is. Front armor can deflect rams, rear armor cannot.


the tiger ace does have the same armor, so AT nades and ram have the same chance to work. rear armor can deflect rams though. tigers have the best rear armor in the game.
13 Nov 2013, 17:53 PM
#28
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

You can win with this commander even without Tiger Ace...I encountered a dude with this commander and the dude didn't begin giving veterancy to his infantry....no,he was dominated,until the 20th minute ,when he made 2 Panzer 4's(don't know where he had fuel from),vetted them at the price of 2 Scout Cars and then proceeded to destroy all my army(4 T34's and 1 SU85 and a couple of Cons and Penals)...good luck with this $$2wincommander
13 Nov 2013, 18:12 PM
#29
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

The doctrine is fine except for the tiger ace. Normally, you need to save up a lot of resources to call in heavy tanks, leaving you vulnerable to medium tanks which can easily put you behind if used correctly. The tiger ace can be called in for free, which means that you can get medium tanks of your own and thus you will never be put behind against an equally matched opponent. Then, suddenly, what was first an equal game turns into a slaughter fest because the Germans can call in a super tank for free and kill you in 1 attack. In short, it's an I win button against an opponent of equal skill.
Hux
13 Nov 2013, 18:43 PM
#30
avatar of Hux
Patrion 14

Posts: 505

Purchasable vet is too big of a gameplay mechanic to be included in a single commander IMO. If it isn't part of the faction's core mechanic it shouldn't be included full stop.

I'm at a loss to figure out what the design briefs are that Relic are working to with these commanders. I mean, before this patch I thought that units vetted up too quickly (arguably they did) but the new vet system came in and it seems to be addressing that problem quite well... but what existing problem in the meta required this commander to be created is beyond me? if the answer to that is there wasn't one and they just created it for something new then im afraid that's bad design. Very bad design...

Research informs ideas --> Ideas inform deliverables

these commanders should be a way of addressing problems in the meta, not doubling it in size every month with new gameplay mechanics. I'm worried it's going too far now.

13 Nov 2013, 19:00 PM
#31
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 18:43 PMHux
Purchasable vet is too big of a gameplay mechanic to be included in a single commander IMO. If it isn't part of the faction's core mechanic it shouldn't be included full stop.

I'm at a loss to figure out what the design briefs are that Relic are working to with these commanders. I mean, before this patch I thought that units vetted up too quickly (arguably they did) but the new vet system came in and it seems to be addressing that problem quite well... but what existing problem in the meta required this commander to be created is beyond me? if the answer to that is there wasn't one and they just created it for something new then im afraid that's bad design. Very bad design...

Research informs ideas --> Ideas inform deliverables

these commanders should be a way of addressing problems in the meta, not doubling it in size every month with new gameplay mechanics. I'm worried it's going too far now.



I don't really see a problem with commanders expanding the meta-game, in fact I welcome it. I also don't really see a problem with having the option to buy vet, especially with the new system.

1) The new vet system makes it so that higher levels of vet on units, while still stronger than lower levels, is not as extreme as before the patch.

2) Buying vet is a temporary benefit, with a permanent cost. You will never get that 20 fuel back, and as soon as the enemy units gain levels of vet your advantage is lessened.

3) Higher vet units are worth more experience. This is another reason I tend not to purchase Vet on Grenadiers. Fighting vet 3 grenadiers, or any other unit for that matter, will result in the Soviet player's squads/units getting experience extremely quickly. Further evening the scales.

4) All commander abilities are choices - basically, by picking a commander with the option to purchase vet you're giving up another option such as a doctrinal specific call-in or off-map support. Notice that the Elite Troops doctrine actually has ZERO in the way of off-map support. Not even light artillery barrages to help soften up entrenched ZiS/Maxims. This can be a huge drawback as the game drags on and other players can lay down strafing runs, incendiary barrages on your PaKs, etc.

5) Costing fuel (arguably the most precious resource in the game) it ensures that the player has to make a choice. Do I vet up this unit and gain an advantage RIGHT NOW, or do I save this fuel to get out my higher tech units more quickly? 20 fuel doesn't sound like much until you consider that using it 4-5 times over the course of a game means one less tank to bring in. This choice, as the metagame evolves around these new commanders, will separate good players from bad players which is ultimately a benefit.

6) There are still reliable counters to early game vet 3 units. People will have to adjust, simple as that. You can't expect conscripts to keep up with a vet 3 gren squad but you have Oorah to soft retreat and harass the map, you can throw molotovs which will gain you vet very quickly, and have equal effect on the vet 3 squad. Flame Engis will do the same damage, garrisoning houses will still be a great option, mortars, snipers, t-70s to chase retreating squads - it is entirely possible to play around an early vet 3 unit (and know that they've delayed their tech to buy that vet 3) - people just need to get used to it.
13 Nov 2013, 19:08 PM
#32
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Well said Ciez, and in a format I very much appreciate and is oh so rare. Numbered and categorised. I love that shit to death.

I think the Vet upgrade is one of the changes that "worked" in this revision of the game, exactly for those reasons you numbered and categorised.

Unfortunately the same Commander is marred by the Ace, which imo needs a CP increase to atleast 8. Its main strength is ironically not in its stats (which are extremely formidable), but in the fact its a free call-in.

Even though it stops resource income, retrospectively, if you consider that you had to buy it upfront, which would be insanely expensive (talking about 1k+ MP, 300 Fuel AND Muni, because it includes the Pintle Mount in its coaxial), means that even though you lose resource income thereafter, you are actually still at a net resource benefit for a LOOONG time after it hits the field, for no cost at all.
13 Nov 2013, 19:28 PM
#33
avatar of MrLate

Posts: 24

KT should cost moderately high amount of resources to call in (something like 600 MP and 200 Fuel) + after the call in, decrease the amount of resources gained by x% for rest of the match.
13 Nov 2013, 19:29 PM
#34
avatar of kafrion

Posts: 371

You dont need to vet your infantry , if you are your doing it wrong . The proper way to play the commander is to give your p4 or stoog their special abilities and once they have accumulated some vet use the ability once again to get them to vet 2 as for the Swiger the only way to stop it is with mines and possibly ram everything will just bounce off .
13 Nov 2013, 20:28 PM
#35
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

Yeah the Tiger Ace is something that I haven't had too much experience with. I've personally never brought it out yet and only faced it one time - unfortunately for the opponents (was in a 2v2) we had a huge lead as a result of my cheesing the Soviet Industry doctrine (severely overpowered in 2vs2) and I managed to disable it on my 2nd ram from the back. Then it just got picked apart by Su-85s and my KV-2. It would certainly be a very scary thing to face on an even playing field.
13 Nov 2013, 23:02 PM
#36
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

To those who say vetting infantry is not worth it, you haven't faced a good player who used that vet 3 gren squad to push you off the map easily. 20 fuel is not that much, it's barely a minute if you have a decent income, and it ensures that the gren squad will utterly melt conscripts, even without the LMG. If it does get the LMG (and considering the state of the metagame, it will)... good luck. You are pretty much forced into using shock troops or a sniper, which sucks. No doctrine should force you into a playstyle if you want to survive, that's not their purpose.

And we're not even into mid-game, where this doctrine really hurts. One click gives panzer 4's vet 2 IIRC, enough to give it very good bonuses on top of instant blitzkrieg to create a potent murdermachine. It's even good vs infantry at this stage. You need SU-85s to destroy it.

As for the Tiger Ace, while the ''do or die'' aspect is interesting, it makes it a nightmare to balance. I'd say it should have an initial cost, then halve the player's ressource rate. It's just a bit too good to have the best unit in the game come instantly and without expense.
13 Nov 2013, 23:16 PM
#37
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

I think the stun grenade deserves a mention. I find that it magnifies the effect of rifle grenades and bundle grenades considerably and at an affordable cost (15 muni)
14 Nov 2013, 05:17 AM
#38
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 19:00 PMCieZ


2) Buying vet is a temporary benefit, with a permanent cost. You will never get that 20 fuel back, and as soon as the enemy units gain levels of vet your advantage is lessened.


All well and good.

Played 2v2 vs two Elite commanders.

And you are right, fuel becomes a real problem mid-late game. But not for whom you perceive.

Both of them came out with vet3 Gren >Mg42 > Gren> Mg42 > vet mortar. Took entire map, build reinforcement + healing bunkers and pulled out Piv's while we were struggling to have fuel for t2 (after going t1 for snipers) and molotovs.

On the bright side, they didn't manage to pull out Tiger Ace cause we didn't last that long :D

3) Higher vet units are worth more experience. This is another reason I tend not to purchase Vet on Grenadiers. Fighting vet 3 grenadiers, or any other unit for that matter, will result in the Soviet player's squads/units getting experience extremely quickly. Further evening the scales.


We played on Lagreskaya, so the map isn't wide open. You cannot kill shit with Cons from double MG42 and Vet 3 LMG Grens and tho we had some success with snipers until the scout car and halftruck crashed the party.

I might add also that early vet mortar was devastating and just made those Zis Guns utterly useless.

If you wonder why I went T1 and T2. Its because I needed AT weapons and didn't have nearly enough fuel to pull out T34 or SU85 by the time Piv hit the ground.


Tho, I assume this commander wouldn't be so utterly devastating on wider map with less cutoff points and in 1v1 game.

5) Costing fuel (arguably the most precious resource in the game) it ensures that the player has to make a choice. Do I vet up this unit and gain an advantage RIGHT NOW, or do I save this fuel to get out my higher tech units more quickly? 20 fuel doesn't sound like much until you consider that using it 4-5 times over the course of a game means one less tank to bring in. This choice, as the metagame evolves around these new commanders, will separate good players from bad players which is ultimately a benefit.


Map control ensures that more resources pour in, negating early fuel expenditure. Spending 60 fuel in early game for vet units should ensure both fuels and map domination

Don't underestimate its power in the hands of someone who is capable and works out strategies on particular maps.

I wont even mention blitz and Ptactician smoke.
14 Nov 2013, 05:35 AM
#39
avatar of The Dave

Posts: 396

Con!,

If you played COH you would know that before the game was "stale", as you understand it, it was almost unplayable because Relic refused for the longest time to do anything about Kangaroos being into your base by 7 minutes and then crushing your troops over and over again. Before that, trenches and gliders crushed all your people. The PE infantry spam and ACs were ridiculous. ToV represents this shift where relic nose dived from legendary to comically insane.

VCoH and CoH+TOV were done by separate teams if I remember correctly. The TOV expansion caused ridiculous problems to the game essentially ruining a perfect rts and running off over 3/4s of the initial community.

Guess who is in charge of this game? The track record simply isn't there. Nothing that they have said or done in this game thus far has been anything to the contrary of a big fucking letdown and this is about to make it even worse.

Mark my words.
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