Elite Troops Doctrine

What are your thoughts on this commander thus far?

I pretty much only play German myself and I can already see this as an extremely powerful commander especially in team games as you can vet your own units/team mates units for a small price of 55mp and 20 fuel.

I personally think that the ability should have some sort of cool-down as you can just pump your tanks up to vet 3 instantly if you have the resources or at least a mp increase to 100.

And as for the Tiger ace , I have brought this beast out 3 times in 3v3 and it was just pure domination, I purposely brought it out when the game was at an even balance (neither winning or loosing)and it made a huge difference even though I had no resource income, I simply kept 4 pio squads hidden and supported my tiger ace with infantry and left around 400 mp to reinforce my troops when needed.

Thoughts?

Price seems about right to me.

20 fuel is substantial and prevents spamming it, or youll have less armor units. Also delays armor if used early on infantry.

vetting infantry is strong, but the trade off is slower teching. also, losing that vet squad is a big hit to your army. this veterancy advantage is lessened as the game goes on, since other units vet for free, so you really have to make use of your advantage early on. it does allow replacing dead squads with vet ones, which is very nice. by the way, using vet squads gives the enemy more experience, so they will vet faster than normal as well.

the tiger ace is strong but easily countered. maybe its just because its new and people dont know how to use it yet, but i killed it very fast in the games i saw it in. one hit a mine, then i rammed it. first ram failed, but second one worked. finished it off with su85s. germans quit right after it died. second one got over extended and the first ram immobilized it. they didnt even wait for it to die before quitting.

those examples are in team games by the way. maybe people will learn to use it better as they use it more. even then, i dont think this will be op like people claim. mines, t34s and AT nades

soviet sniper (optionally on M3) should be a very hard counter to this.
you have less, more valuable squads that are as durable to sniper shots, which in turn gets 1.6x experience and becomes stronger and stronger for free

soviet sniper (optionally on M3) should be a very hard counter to this.
you have less, more valuable squads that are as durable to sniper shots, which in turn gets 1.6x experience and becomes stronger and stronger for free

Not really. the problem for the sniper is that this doctrine comes with the g43. the sniper will have to retreat or get destroyed after firing one shot. not to mention that the germans can counter snipe as well with incendiary bullets instantly killing your sniper team for 45 ammo

3vs3 teamgame with three tiger aces is an overkill ^^ vetting infantry is a nice gadget, to push the MG42 for example to get 20% more supression...

Not really. the problem for the sniper is that this doctrine comes with the g43. the sniper will have to retreat or get destroyed after firing one shot. not to mention that the germans can counter snipe as well with incendiary bullets instantly killing your sniper team for 45 ammo

M3+sniper it is then
also good because scout car will come later due to fuel bleed

Played a guy who used this. My thoughts exactly.

Essentially, as sovs, your units vet up faster and the ways to combat this I find (not counter) include

a) Indirect units
b) Molotovs (ignores armour)
c) Sniper

Also, I tried using the SU-76 against the initial infantry army. The later the German armour comes out, the even more potent the SU-76 is. It was able to rack up a fair few kills.

Oh and the Tiger Ace is not a tank which you can send to the enemy base and say "I win". Did end up killing it but cost me my whole army.

Ultimately, your best weapon against these tactics is unit preservation.

vetting infantry is strong, but the trade off is slower teching. also, losing that vet squad is a big hit to your army. this veterancy advantage is lessened as the game goes on, since other units vet for free, so you really have to make use of your advantage early on. it does allow replacing dead squads with vet ones, which is very nice. by the way, using vet squads gives the enemy more experience, so they will vet faster than normal as well.

the tiger ace is strong but easily countered. maybe its just because its new and people dont know how to use it yet, but i killed it very fast in the games i saw it in. one hit a mine, then i rammed it. first ram failed, but second one worked. finished it off with su85s. germans quit right after it died. second one got over extended and the first ram immobilized it. they didnt even wait for it to die before quitting.

those examples are in team games by the way. maybe people will learn to use it better as they use it more. even then, i dont think this will be op like people claim. mines, t34s and AT nades

I see your point about the enemy gaining more XP for killing higher vet units so this sort of balances it out and I suppose the more you invest your vet ability on your infantry at the start really slows down your tank production.

In 1v1 it's very strong. You can easily get a gren squad to vet 3 immediately, and what you lose in fuel (because honestly, 55 mp is nothing) you gain in a super-unit that can melt conscripts on sight, doubly so with an LMG/G43 thanks to the new accuracy buff on vet. This allows you to gain the upper hand in map control easily. Snipers are a counter... Unless you're on a shit map like Semois where you might as well lay down and die.

On vehicles it's... Also very powerful. Making that P4 an instant vet 2 basically nullifies it's weakness to T-34s, and at this stage of the game 20 fuel is not much. Still beatable thanks to AT guns and such, but it's kind of a long shot if your opponent knows what he's doing.

The Tiger Ace is basically there to seal the deal in contested 1v1's. You kill it or it kills you. I managed to destroy it once thanks to a lucky Katyusha barrage exterminating my opponent's infantry while the big 'un got a critical engine from stepping on a mine, but the other time the thing just barreled through my defenses. If you don't have T4 or a doctrinal superheavy it's very, very hard to kill. Your best bet is to hope for a mine or a successfull ram. So basically, pray to the RNG gods. Yeah...

In 1v1 it's very strong. You can easily get a gren squad to vet 3 immediately, and what you lose in fuel (because honestly, 55 mp is nothing) you gain in a super-unit that can melt conscripts on sight, doubly so with an LMG/G43 thanks to the new accuracy buff on vet.

What am I reading.
405/60/60 for a vet3 G43/LMG Gren.
Wtf is "easily" about that?

V2 on PIV adds 110/40 to the cost. Thats a huge stall to more armor or tech.

This is the most outrageously biased and one sided post I have read here in months.

What am I reading.
405/60/60 for a vet3 G43/LMG Gren.
Wtf is "easily" about that?

V2 on PIV adds 110/40 to the cost. Thats a huge stall to more armor or tech.

This is the most outrageously biased and one sided post I have read here in months.

Er... not entirely sure you did your math correctly. It only takes one use of troop training to get your Grens/HMGs/Mortars/222s to vet 3. Sniper gets to vet 2 off one use, Pgrens vet 2 and I don't remember PaKs/tanks (I think 3-4 uses on a panther for vet3). [295 mp/60 muni/20 fuel for a vet 3 LMG42 gren squad but at that cost, yes it should rip apart vet 0 conscript squads]

Anyways, using it on a gren squad early game in my opinion is somewhat of a waste. They're going to get solid levels of vet as long as you preserve them throughout the game. I'd rather get a sniper or Pgren squad to vet 2 instantly, or a vet 3 mortar and/or HMG42 (which can actually suppress when vet 3 imagine that!). I feel like the most efficient use of the troop training is to give whatever unit you need most at the moment some free experience, this will give you consistent, solid counters to whatever you're facing without slowing down your tech by just throwing 20 fuel training onto every squad that you have.

(vet buying)
20 fuel hurts like hell you can't do it without sacrificing alot. much more useful in team games. you have teammates that can pick up the slack. i think a sniper would counter this ability very well since its attached to a single unit when it dies so does the vet.

(tiger ace)
and tiger ace is surround able and very killabe its still only 1 tank despite it being equivalent of 2. (it doesn't hove 2 guns 2 turrets 2 tracks etc...)

it does have far more use in 2v2 and up than 1v1.

Thanks Ciez for the correction. I tried to hunt around for info on it, but none is available yet except largely to people who own it and have used it (or beta players, who have been tigh lipped till now).

I still think that is anything but "easily". That kind of fuel expenditure on infantry seriously delays armor. Very seriously.

Good post, and I agree with how you break down what units it would be most worthwhile on, especially considering traditional unit preservation and vetting.

The cost is significant. It allows some degree of specialisation, but the esrlier you use it, the harder you handicap yourself voth in tech and armor. I dont think Sov should have a problem adapting to it even with vanilla Commanders.

I don't know, but maybe the vet training should be limited to infantry...

I think it's a waste to use veterancy on infantry and snipers. Elite troops gives the infantry stun grenades and G43s, the former of which is a strong buff. Stun grenade, then rifle grenade. Stun grenade, then bundle grenade. Very effective.

V3 Pak/mortars have new levels of performance but they themselves are cleared a bit too easily.

Veterancy should be reserved to buff up your tanks to new levels of performance. I used it on my T3/T4 tanks. You spend 3 x veterancy and you have a vetted up tank already with superior performance. (60 fuel)

I don't know, but maybe the vet training should be limited to infantry...

I remember the that stefane next to brad said the it takes the panther 6 clicks to get to vet 3 or somthing like that. if that is true thats is... (yea im a tard I almost had to get the old pen and paper out.) 120 fuel that is alot of fuel that I could otherwise do alot of stuff with. i think it cost other resources as well but im just looking at fuel ill let you do the math for the other costs.

I don't know, but maybe the vet training should be limited to infantry...

I tend to agree. However Id add to that, that it should imo cost Muni, not fuel.

Fuel is too important for teching.

60 Muni instead of 20 fuel, works better imo, especially if its only for infantry.
This would mean you trade a weapon upgrade or mines for Vet, which makes sense to me.
Especiqlly on this Commander, since you pair the cost with G43s and SNades AND the inxreased 30 Muni Smoke (or did that make it live?)

Now is easier than ever to have vetted tanks with blietzkrieg.

I don't really like that mechanic, and it's one of the things I most despised in vCoH, the stupid german veterancy system.

I have the commander, it's 3 clicks to get a Panther to V2.