Soviet T1 redesign/rebranding

Hello,

As everyone knows, since the 7man conscripts and airbourne commander introduction the meta has shifted heavily towards Conscript and T2 builds, which has dramatically reduced the role of the Soviet T1 structure and its units as an alternative to a T2 build. This has led to the unfortunate situation where 3 core soviet units are being underutilized because of their cost, role and T1 cost. This is why I would like to suggest a change to the T1 structure, from an alternative to the T2 I think it would be best utilized as a form of a Soviet early Ost T4 structure. What I mean by that is that Conscripts should remain the core unit of the Soviet army and the T1 units should be designed around that. Let's get into more specifics.

First of all, T1 should have its fuel cost removed and instead carry a 150mp cost. T3 should not unlock with T1 built, only if T2 is built. T2 should be built normally as is now. T1 will thus be a completely optional tier that can be built at any point during the match. Now let's look at the units.

M3A1 Scout Car, a frustrating unit for some OKW players but one that definitely has a role as a counter to faust-less and support weapon heavy builds. The unit in itself is fine but there is no reason to build one in the mid/late game. I think this unit would be better served if its cost was increased to 200mp 25 fuel and in return it received some abilities to help perform its role as a scout vehicle. A good change would be the addition of camouflage at vet 1, which would allow the vehicle if not garrisoned with a squad to become camouflaged and slowly move. This would allow it to act as a spotter in all stages of the game. As a forward vehicle a small 5m AoE healing aura for 10secs at a 20muni cost could also be allowed once T3 is built, to allow limited forward healing of its forward detatchment. Once T4 is built the unit could receive flares like the ones the PM81 mortar and the sniper gets. This gradual increase in utility could help the unit scale into the late game in its intended role as a scout vehicle and incentivize players to build it late in the game.

Snipers, the most frustrating units in the game, which can be extremely annoying to counter especially if you're a faction that can't countersnipe. I like an idea where snipers would have 50%/75% of normal infantry speed when moving around and 100% speed during retreats. I think it would go very nicely with the Soviet sniper, although this loss of durability would have to be compensated with the addition of a 2nd model to the squad, just like old times. This would allow counterplay by simply running at the sniper, meaning you have to support them in order to get the most out of them, while still allowing retreats to be done at normal speeds to preserve them. If the change with the speed is good then Ost and ukf snipers could receive similar treatment.

Penals, an alternative mainline infantry which has completely fallen out of favour since the introduction of 7man and SVT conscripts. I think a role change would suit them nicely. My opinion is that they should lose their SVTs in favour of Conscript mosin nagants, their PTRS upgrade and homing satchel (but not regular) should be removed and instead they should upgrade with HQ AT grenades like conscripts, their weapon upgrade should be a single flamethrower and their combat veterancy should be altered to not make them a mainline replacement but a specialist squad, something like vet 1 out of combat healing, vet 2 flamer burst rate of fire boost and suppression resistance, vet 3 5-10% damage reduction lower grenade and satchel cooldown and cheaper satchels. That way veterancy would fit their role and they wouldn't be of value if spammed as conscripts replacement since they'd be expensive, high target size and no accuracy bonuses.

Obviously my suggestion in general is T1 as an optional tier and its specialist units to be even more specialized for all stages of the game. The numbers and specifics of each unit are up for debate, anyone is welcome to propose alternatives, I'm just putting my own ideas forward.

I think T1 needs to be looked at in the next patch, it would make Soviets a lot more enjoyable to play and give more variety.

I've got better idea - let the 7 man con nerfs land first, wait and then re-evaluate if any kind of changes are needed.

Now that being said, since I have some free time to waste, I'm going to read this

Ok, I've read it and I hate every single thing.
Here is very brief reasoning:

M3 - given how no one uses shared vet, 0 fuel kubel for that role, 25fu M3 wouldn't even be considered at -all-, regardless of T1 being fuel free or not, also no one uses it as a scout, because much safer, useful and survivable T70 takes over that role in mid-late game.

Penals - what I've said above applies perfectly, also making them even more of a con clone with different upgrade only further takes away all of their appeal.

Sniper - that would make it completely useless unit as single squad of anything would hardcounter it and it would massively impact its ability to move from cover to cover without revealing itself.

I've got better idea - let the 7 man con nerfs land first, wait and then re-evaluate if any kind of changes are needed.

I mean yeah, I said it’s something to talk about for next patch Kappa

The general idea of redefining T1 is appealing, but I don't think that it is necessary or should be done at this point. T1 builds were the meta in a strong SOV faction before Conscripts got their Mobilized Reserves buff. And Penals were totally fine by that point. Just because Conscripts now got slightly overbuffed it does not mean that Penals suddenly are bad, they are just cost inefficient compared to Cons. As soon as Cons are back in line, we will see both Tiers again.

To the specific suggestions:
I agree with Katitof on the M3. Utility would be nice, but SOV has already a better scout in the form of the T70 that scales alright into the late game.

I suggested a sniper movement nerf some time ago although I would not be as drastic. 10-20% will probably be fine, and a second model not needed with this. Overall I think this change could be out of scope and cause a lot of issues for balancing.

The Penal change I really do not like. 6 men flamer should only be an exception, and it is not needed since SOV already have a flamer squad that can be merged into. I know that it is meant in the context of the reworked T1, but I think this whole idea is out of scope and could break SOV for good or bad for a long time. Also it could lead to a less diverse and more boring SOV faction. When Cons are fixed, there will likely be two quite different play styles depending on your teching path. This could all be destroyed by your suggestions.

I'll rather wait to see how the next patch lands.

And the only change i'll see is making Penals require the HQ upgrades for either the normal satchel and the PTRS upgrade, if the faction AND tier requires any nerf.

Don't touch T1 until next patch.

I think the sniper idea is bad. Snipers are very expensive and unsupported snipers already get forced off the field by a single enemy squad if the enemy commits to the chase. They simply don't have the rate of fire to successfully kite enemy squads on their own, and engaging an enemy squad with just a sniper is best done by only taking 1 shot and then fleeing back. There really is no need to give them reduced speed, as it will make countering snipers trivially easy.

Making the scout car better late-game is a good idea (this goes pretty much for all light vehicles), but instead of a 5m healing aura, I would just make it a single med-kit drop, as a small healing aura is very clunky to use with spread-out 6 men squads.

Hello,


M3A1 Scout Car...

Snipers, ...

Penals, ...

I think T1 needs to be looked at in the next patch, it would make Soviets a lot more enjoyable to play and give more variety.

Penals bleed too much MP in 3v3 or 4v4. They seem expensive for what you get versus PGrens. The PTRS upgrade is still a joke compared to the shreks on PGrens. Even in AI, they don't seem to be worth 30 more MP than something like Panzerfusiliers. They must be godly in 1v1's because I don't think I've seen even 300-level players use them in 3v3 or 4v4 recently.

The sniper seems fine.

For the M3A1
Compared to Kubel, the M3A1 has less health, same DPS, seems to have a smaller shooting arc, costs fuel, and can't cap. It always dies if fausted or snared, unlike the Kubel. It's only advantage is the ability to carry squads.

Compared to the 251HT, which costs the same MP and only 15 more fuel, 320hp versus 200, both can carry squads, free passive heal on the 251, free reinforce on the 251, higher armor on the 251.

Giving it 40 more HP so that it has similar surviveability to the Kubel, then giving it a fuel or muni upgrade to allow reinforce and a timed small area heal (or heal inside like the 251) would make this a lot more worthwhile.

For the M3A1
Compared to Kubel, the M3A1 has less health, same DPS, seems to have a smaller shooting arc, costs fuel, and can't cap. It always dies if fausted or snared, unlike the Kubel. It's only advantage is the ability to carry squads.

Compared to the 251HT, which costs the same MP and only 15 more fuel, 320hp versus 200, both can carry squads, free passive heal on the 251, free reinforce on the 251, higher armor on the 251.

Giving it 40 more HP so that it has similar surviveability to the Kubel, then giving it a fuel or muni upgrade to allow reinforce and a timed small area heal (or heal inside like the 251) would make this a lot more worthwhile.

The problem is I consider the M5 to be a soviet 251 analog. If the team wants some kind of healing oriented vehicle, I think the M5 would take precedent over the M3A1.

Penals are 300, PF's are 270. Does the difference really equal 5?

I love how you said "full potential". We should play a game some time where you can only build penals and I can build PF's. It will be great fun and we can post the results of Penal's full potential.

Please don’t derail the thread, this is about T1 redesign suggestions, not Fusiliers vs Penals. Make a separate thread if you wanna argue.

The problem is I consider the M5 to be a soviet 251 analog. If the team wants some kind of healing oriented vehicle, I think the M5 would take precedent over the M3A1.

The M5 is more the equivalent but the thread was looking for options for the M3a1. If heal/reinforce isn't considered reasonable, then letting the M3 cap would make it more useful.

The M5 is more the equivalent but the thread was looking for options for the M3a1. If heal/reinforce isn't considered reasonable, then letting the M3 cap would make it more useful.

Yes, capping would be good too, but not from the get go as it would basically be a jacked up Kubel. Perhaps letting it cap once T2 is up would be good, so it can cap but not at the T0 stage.

Maybe healing the squad inside it as an activated ability would be nice.

Please don’t derail the thread, this is about T1 redesign suggestions, not Fusiliers vs Penals. Make a separate thread if you wanna argue.

I made a comparison between Penals and PGrens or PFusiliers. Vipper is the one that wants to argue. My point on Penals was just that they're too expensive and the upgrades are still more of a downgrade.

Your suggestion on the flamethrower upgrade won't go anywhere. They used to have it and it made 1v1's on city maps terrible to play, particularly as OKW. Other than cost and different upgrades, I'm not sure what to propose for this.

Yes, capping would be good too, but not from the get go as it would basically be a jacked up Kubel. Perhaps letting it cap once T2 is up would be good, so it can cap but not at the T0 stage.

Maybe healing the squad inside it as an activated ability would be nice.

Is it a jacked up Kubel? Combat-wise, they seem really close. I do agree that healing the squad inside as a activated ability would be good. If it had a cost, it should be nominal, around 5 munies, since it's only one squad.

I though just 7men Consript too good……but for penal,I'd like to see Mobilize Reserve and some commander ability will have some buff for penal too