ISU-152 HE shell range should be reduced?
23 Mar 2020, 22:38 PM
#101
Posts: 1351
It is simply true that Soviets are the best overall faction mainlny because of combining 2 funcionalities on one unit. ZiS, ISU, and other units are very often too good at dealing with both infantry and armour. You buy ZiS, you can use it too kill tanks as well as infantry or other AT guns or maybe mgs - pick what you like. Same with ISU - kill infantry, tanks from 70 range, why not? It is just hilarious to read about lethal tigers that actually have to be in range of at guns and tank destroyers to deal any damage. Soviets are simply OP because of such things. Nobody wants to admit it but I just don't believe that such obvious things don't get noticed.
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23 Mar 2020, 22:41 PM
#102
Posts: 1392
"All they had to do" was set there 14 CP, 720mp 260fu unit to a mode where it cant damage most tanks
Its not zero user input. You have to switch the shells and spot for the tank. You have to protect it from flanks with whatever else you have left, it takes up a lot of pop and resources
This is the exact reason you will never see one in 1v1. It only gets used in team games, nerf it more and we won't see it in any game modes
There are many units and commanders not used in 1vs1 or other game-modes, I have no problem with that. That was an argument of many people here on forum, why you choose that or these commander? Why not build/choose that or these units? Some bull-shit of why you don't pick Elefant, gg of not because stock units can't counter such shit etc.
So many people in balance-team and forum arn't consistent and their argumentations are hypocritical.
23 Mar 2020, 22:44 PM
#103
Posts: 1392
...
Don't forget soviets also can recoon in that range, non-doc by flares of mortars and snipers, T70's recoon-ability or SU67 and Zis3 extra sight-ability, at last SU85 cone-sight + extra boost to 100 range. xDDD
23 Mar 2020, 22:45 PM
#104
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
So many people in balance-team and forum arn't consistent and their argumentations are hypocritical.
You didn't even make an argument? Youre just ranting about your opinions of other people
23 Mar 2020, 22:50 PM
#105
Posts: 1392
You didn't even make an argument? Youre just ranting about your opinions of other people
Ideas of others I prefer become part of my opinon, that is how betterment works. And incompetence has to be criticized, my primary task.
ISU is OP because of same arguments Elefant's cone-sight was removed years ago, why Brummbär got sight AND armor nerf. Maybe even same why every unit got nefed. Use your brain, maybe you find the argument, because there is no need to write or say it. It is logical.
23 Mar 2020, 22:55 PM
#106
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Use your brain, maybe you find the argument, because there is no need to write or say it. It is logical.
Right lol.... so you don't have an argument. The ISU was also nerfed years ago, around the same time as some of those elefant nerfs. Feel free to read about it
23 Mar 2020, 22:56 PM
#107
Posts: 1351
Don't forget soviets also can recoon in that range, non-doc by flares of mortars and snipers, T70's recoon-ability or SU67 and Zis3 extra sight-ability, at last SU85 cone-sight + extra boost to 100 range. xDDD
I know it all too well. It is just funny how some people can be so vocal about making sure that tigers become cats, but keep saying that 70 range monster is just fine.
(09.10.2019): "You really are a jewel to this forum" - feels proud, thank You
(24.03.2020): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PiqCeLEmM
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23 Mar 2020, 23:02 PM
#108
Posts: 1392
Right.... so you don't have an argument. The ISU was also nerfed years ago, around the same time as some of those elefant nerfs. Feel free to read about it
Gut buffed again, didn't lost abilities and is now a cancer-unit.
Every unit should come in with handy-caps and should be able to counterd by stock-units, in a realistic aspect.
And ISU is one of these things, in comaprison with commander and line-up, simply too much.
With actual weapon stats it is a. too fast b. has too much side-armor. Even with with a nerf af that the HE range it too much.
23 Mar 2020, 23:05 PM
#109
Posts: 1392
I know it all too well. It is just funny how some people can be so vocal about making sure that tigers become cats, but keep saying that 70 range monster is just fine.
There are many justified changes, but when all the arguments become to be hypocritical then I simply get salty. And this thread is a perfect example for such fan-boy balancing shit, not interrested in game-balance.
Edit: And if Tiger/IS/Pershing were too good, than the ISU is it too. Even more. Don't forget KV2.
Simply add handy-caps, maybe that is enought:
- ISU has too much side-armor + speed to allow that good weapon-stas.
- KV shoulnd't be able to rotate the turret over 30° if not stationary.
Simply give them handy-caps like so many other units have. Worse speed, side-armor, acc., diffrente range for abilies. etc.
23 Mar 2020, 23:18 PM
#110
Posts: 1351
Right.... so you don't have an argument. The ISU was also nerfed years ago, around the same time as some of those elefant nerfs. Feel free to read about it
I remember the good old ISU
. Still, the point is that allies are simply much better than ost, and Soviets are simply the best of all factions and slight adjustements should be made to Soviets rather than to Axis imo. And here's a little number I tossed off recently in the Caribbean:Isn't it awfully nice to have an ISU?
Isn't it frightfully good to have this tank?
It's swell to have a stiffy
It's divine to kill all crauts
From the tiniest little Helmut
To the axis biggest cats
So three cheers for your ISU or ISU-152
Hooray for your one-eyed trouser snake
Your piece of pork, your comrade's best friend
Your Percy or your cock
You can wrap it up in ribbons
You can slip it in your sock
And do take them out in public
Park them in the dock
You will simply wreck havoc
Thank you very much
(09.10.2019): "You really are a jewel to this forum" - feels proud, thank You
(24.03.2020): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PiqCeLEmM
(25.06.2020): http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198035553470/standings
23 Mar 2020, 23:55 PM
#111
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
It is totally a valid argument now you're just not making any sense at all. Reload time is irrelevant? Its reload time literally means it has worse AT power than an SU85, a unit that is more than 100 fuel cheaper....
Fun fact:
ISU AT DPS is 24.
SU-76 AT DPS is 28.
Ele AT DPS is 33.
In both, its average time including reload time fluctuations, wind up/down delays are same, so I disregarded them, they are negligible anyway.
ISU will obviously fare better against KT and such, but might kill a P4 slower then SU-76.
And we're talking about 260 fuel unit vs 70 fuel one.
So I'm questioning again, there does that "excellent AT" comes from?
ISU CAN be used as AT platform, but I don't think there exist a vehicle that got worse AT DPS, maybe only FF, cba to count as I'm hitting the bed now.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Mar 2020, 00:07 AM
#112
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Fun fact:
ISU AT DPS is 24.
SU-76 AT DPS is 28.
Ele AT DPS is 33.
Source? vs what target? a what range?
In both, its average time including reload time fluctuations, wind up/down delays are same, so I disregarded them, they are negligible anyway.
ISU will obviously fare better against KT and such, but might kill a P4 slower then SU-76.
And we're talking about 260 fuel unit vs 70 fuel one.
So I'm questioning again, there does that "excellent AT" comes from?
ISU CAN be used as AT platform, but I don't think there exist a vehicle that got worse AT DPS, maybe only FF, cba to count as I'm hitting the bed now.
You number seem to be off.
If we assume all shot connect and penetrate ISU-152 will can kill a PzIV with 3 shots (2 reloads) in about 20.5 secs a SU-75 will need 6 shots (5 reloads) in about 26 secs.
24 Mar 2020, 00:31 AM
#113
Posts: 1954
Ideas of others I prefer become part of my opinon, that is how betterment works. And incompetence has to be criticized, my primary task.
ISU is OP because of same arguments Elefant's cone-sight was removed years ago, why Brummbär got sight AND armor nerf. Maybe even same why every unit got nefed. Use your brain, maybe you find the argument, because there is no need to write or say it. It is logical.
...and with this we should be done here, nothing left but pointless name calling....
PS - I just lost a 2v2 because my teammate went ISU and the other team didn't listen to you geniuses that consider the ISU uncounterable. Infernoshat put a Panther in front of it, started hitting it with two paks, pushed it back to the edge of our base, and wiped my teammates entire infantry with a skill plane while killing the ISU. I really wish he would've just dropped when he saw the mighty ISU.
24 Mar 2020, 00:35 AM
#114
Posts: 1954
Source? vs what target? a what range?
I think he just took the damage and divided it by the time between shots, ignoring accuracy, penetration, etc. Calculating it that way, I think his numbers are correct.
24 Mar 2020, 01:21 AM
#115
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Moving my comment from the other thread.
Awful spacing is 1 model clamping bug on Conscripts or old 4 man formations. Nowadays it's a completely different story.
I'm glad that we are somehow achieving the point that we are just complaining about what is remaining left in the game but i think people are over exaggerating at points.
Just so i don't speak out of my arse, i tested 4 man squad without vet (gren first, pio later) both with and without clumping.
I threw some PW barrages to create cover, and made them run and stay still at 60 range. So squad is more clumped than usual.
For 2nd test i made pios create sandbags and then deleted those so they are one side by side as close as possible.
3rd test is same as 1st, but with vet 3 grens.
Results:
5-3-3-6-4-2-3-4-3-4 Avg 3.7
2-3-2-4-3-2-2-4-2-4 Avg 2.8
4-4-4-4-5-3-6-3-2-3 Avg 3.8
I didn't count it, but killing a model in the first shell was EXTREMELY rare. Best results were generally doing half or more squad HP dmg.
Packs and Scotts are often built in pairs, so it's more of a pseudo 1-shot.
Both the ISU-152 and KV-2 have an "80 damage" radius of 1.01, so anything inside there is instantly wiped. Considering the awful spacing on Grens, that's pretty common.
Awful spacing is 1 model clamping bug on Conscripts or old 4 man formations. Nowadays it's a completely different story.
I'm glad that we are somehow achieving the point that we are just complaining about what is remaining left in the game but i think people are over exaggerating at points.
Just so i don't speak out of my arse, i tested 4 man squad without vet (gren first, pio later) both with and without clumping.
I threw some PW barrages to create cover, and made them run and stay still at 60 range. So squad is more clumped than usual.
For 2nd test i made pios create sandbags and then deleted those so they are one side by side as close as possible.
3rd test is same as 1st, but with vet 3 grens.
Results:
5-3-3-6-4-2-3-4-3-4 Avg 3.7
2-3-2-4-3-2-2-4-2-4 Avg 2.8
4-4-4-4-5-3-6-3-2-3 Avg 3.8
I didn't count it, but killing a model in the first shell was EXTREMELY rare. Best results were generally doing half or more squad HP dmg.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Mar 2020, 01:26 AM
#116
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Also: pls people stop using DPS as tank vs tank measure
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Mar 2020, 01:27 AM
#117
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I think he just took the damage and divided it by the time between shots, ignoring accuracy, penetration, etc. Calculating it that way, I think his numbers are correct.
No they are not. One can only use "HP/number of shots" ratio since in this case it leads to overkill.
For instance the Elefant does 300 damage and the ISU-152 does 240 but they both need 3 shots to kill medium tank so the "equivalent" damage for both is 213.3.
The Elephant is around 17% better (given all shot do damage) vs medium than ISU-152 while his results present it as 37.5%.
Also: pls people stop using DPS as tank vs tank measure
DPS can be used if the instead of the damage of the gun one uses the HP/number of shots ratio.
This method can take into account accuracy (not collision which can be added as percentage of shot missed) and penetration.
24 Mar 2020, 01:38 AM
#118
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
I didn't count it, but killing a model in the first shell was EXTREMELY rare. Best results were generally doing half or more squad HP dmg.
Thank you for doing the tests!
The ISUs aoe was specifically reworked so that it would be this way. Its overall aoe used to be smaller iirc, but its 80 dmg radius was larger. Then they made the overall aoe 6, but reduced the kill radius
A few explosive weapons have gone through this style of change, the 120mm mortar had this happen as well. Its a rare change that is both a buff and nerf. You deal more consistent damage but the ability to nuke full health squads is practically gone
The ISU is certainly not 1-shotting squads anywhere near what this thread is suggesting
24 Mar 2020, 02:01 AM
#119
Posts: 366
It's "1-shot" radius is 1.01; and grens have a horribly tendency to 'blob' together in cover.
Regardless, let's image a "best case" scenario, where the shell only lands perfectly on one model. The squad is now at 3 models. However, the 2nd closest model was likely in the "mid" damage range, so it took 56 damage, and the other 2 models were likely in the "far" damage range, so they took. 32.
The AOE damage is 1,0.25,0.15 (near, mid far).
The AOE distance (damage done in those ranges) is 0.25,1.1,6 (near mid far)
Therefor its total AOE damage is...
.240 dmg at 0.25 near
.60 dmg at 1.1 mid
.36 dmg at 6 far
Damage is even less for vet 3 grenadiers, the possibility for one shots is suppose (and is) to be rare(This also applies to the kv2 as they share the same AOE stats)
Ill just show the brummbars aoe anyway
AOE damage is 1,0.35,0.2 (near,mid,far)
AOE distance is 0.625,1.25,6 (near,mid,far)
.160 dmg at 0.625
.56 dmg at 1.25
.32 dmg at 6
Its interesting the brummbar has a higher near OHK radios and a slighting better but less damage mid aeo. Edit: this is most likely due to the brummbar having lower range and fighting Allie squads which tend to have a higher modal count.
24 Mar 2020, 03:10 AM
#120
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
DPS can be used if the instead of the damage of the gun one uses the HP/number of shots ratio.
This method can take into account accuracy (not collision which can be added as percentage of shot missed) and penetration.
At that point, u might as well be talking about TTK.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
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