You are gaining more ranks in trolling skills. Someday you will find honourable place in Cohexperts pantheon
Highly unlikely, MVGame.
I demand a quick fix now!
13 Nov 2013, 13:39 PM
#21
Posts: 120
Highly unlikely, MVGame.
13 Nov 2013, 13:43 PM
#22
Posts: 79
Highly unlikely, MVGame.
I'm watching his fall to the dark side for a long time now. Be patient my padawan
MVGame
13 Nov 2013, 13:45 PM
#23
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
13 Fuel additional incoem in exchange for 65 Manpower penalty, seems pretty fair since German players will have bigger cap power.
13 Nov 2013, 14:19 PM
#24
3 
Posts: 368
I think it is very cool to demand stuff, it gets you respect. For added emphasis, plz write in all caps next time.
/Uninstalled
13 Nov 2013, 14:21 PM
#25
1 
Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2
You can get that doctrine after you get 3-4 conscripts, you suffer no capping power decrease and you can call a T70 on the field between minute 5 and 6, having a couple of T70 and a T34 by minute 9. Looking forward to see how Germans can beat that.
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13 Nov 2013, 14:32 PM
#26
2 
Posts: 2181
Make it 2/3cps
13 Nov 2013, 14:43 PM
#27
Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4
Having played a bunch of 2vs2 with this commander last night I have to say... I don't see it being remotely beatable assuming equal skill in a 2v2. I was throwing out 5:25 T-70s while having a sniper in an M3 driving around the early game denying my side/helping my partner's side. After that it was just all downhill. Throw out 2-3 T70s, then endless T34s. I'd generally have 4 T-34s by the time the first P4 hit. PaKs were a joke with proper tank micro + two snipers. Schrecks were useless because of my two snipers. The one long game we had the Germans pulled out a Tiger Ace, which got rammed in the back and killed by an Su-85 + Kv-2. Completely unbeatable in 2vs2.
However, in 1v1 I think it might be a different story. I still think the doctrine could use a major overhaul - possibly make industry kick in at 1 CP, or not reduce build time on the buildings/tanks (that was one of the most insane parts about it - sniper and M3 hit the field at exactly the same time, tanks building in 2 seconds was just ridiculous). The loss of capping power in a 1v1 could be very relevant. The german player should be able to hold his fuel and on most maps, both munition points since you'll never get more than 2-3 con squads as anything more than 2 actually slows down the T-70 timing. Proper investment in schrecks followed by a 222 and/or PaK could go a long way in stalling till a Stug hits the field. So you're really giving up a ton of the map in a 1v1 and going sniper first probably isn't an option as you'd have the least capping power ever. My 2v2 build for the 5:25 T70s is sniper, m3, engi - so I literally have three "infantry" units on the field - not the best idea in a 1v1 I don't think.
However, in 1v1 I think it might be a different story. I still think the doctrine could use a major overhaul - possibly make industry kick in at 1 CP, or not reduce build time on the buildings/tanks (that was one of the most insane parts about it - sniper and M3 hit the field at exactly the same time, tanks building in 2 seconds was just ridiculous). The loss of capping power in a 1v1 could be very relevant. The german player should be able to hold his fuel and on most maps, both munition points since you'll never get more than 2-3 con squads as anything more than 2 actually slows down the T-70 timing. Proper investment in schrecks followed by a 222 and/or PaK could go a long way in stalling till a Stug hits the field. So you're really giving up a ton of the map in a 1v1 and going sniper first probably isn't an option as you'd have the least capping power ever. My 2v2 build for the 5:25 T70s is sniper, m3, engi - so I literally have three "infantry" units on the field - not the best idea in a 1v1 I don't think.
13 Nov 2013, 14:47 PM
#28
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedAbsolutely needs a CP increase.
T70 spam was already extremely viable, this just makes it OTT.
Can still be leveraged for T34s or T4, as one guy pointed out, which presents its own problems, but atleast Ost has a chance to tech accordingly if its say CP2.
I didnt see the cited game by Sib, but according to reports here the Sov player lacked micro and let Shreks handle them.
Lets be seriously honest, T70 can yoyo the fuck in and out and completely screw the Shrek fire cycle. If we add a Faust to the mix we are talking around 150 Munis to deal with an extremely early armor vehicle that can potentially kill 1-2 PGrens per yoyo action.
222 upgun can handle, at most, 1 T70 with serious support and positioning.
T70s laugh at PaKs, especially while yoying and causing PaK to autofire on infantry, not that they can reliably hit them in the first place, and its not hard to predict PaK positions.
T70 spam was already extremely viable, this just makes it OTT.
Can still be leveraged for T34s or T4, as one guy pointed out, which presents its own problems, but atleast Ost has a chance to tech accordingly if its say CP2.
I didnt see the cited game by Sib, but according to reports here the Sov player lacked micro and let Shreks handle them.
Lets be seriously honest, T70 can yoyo the fuck in and out and completely screw the Shrek fire cycle. If we add a Faust to the mix we are talking around 150 Munis to deal with an extremely early armor vehicle that can potentially kill 1-2 PGrens per yoyo action.
222 upgun can handle, at most, 1 T70 with serious support and positioning.
T70s laugh at PaKs, especially while yoying and causing PaK to autofire on infantry, not that they can reliably hit them in the first place, and its not hard to predict PaK positions.
13 Nov 2013, 14:56 PM
#29
Posts: 3293
personally I think there is definitely a counter. however the question even with a counter will it still be OP? but I do think that before everyone goes ape-shit it needs a bit of time to see what happens and see how people adapt to it. (to see exactly where it needs to be nerfed/buffed (aka: adjusted). otherwise it will be a back and forth nerf and buff merry go round. (i fucking hate those idk about you.)
I've heard of various things that you can do against it. the only thing that's quote on quote OP so far in 1v1/has going for it is quick vehicles. the manpower takes a very painful hit so having a sustainable infantry force and keeping up tank production is impossible if used right off the bat. if someone countered the t70s the enemy is in DEEP SHIT. Once someone figures it out the t70 rush may become a non issue unless your unprepared.
anyone remember PE armored cars they were considered unbeatable the Americans didn't have the tools to beat them. all of a sudden inverse/maybe a few others came out with a strats that gave the Americans the edge. all of a sudden counter able and very very beatable. no longer was it an insta win button.
i think right now alot/most of the reaction right is kneejerk give it a bit of time. im not saying it needs a nerf or it doesn't. I am saying is its to early to tell.
I've heard of various things that you can do against it. the only thing that's quote on quote OP so far in 1v1/has going for it is quick vehicles. the manpower takes a very painful hit so having a sustainable infantry force and keeping up tank production is impossible if used right off the bat. if someone countered the t70s the enemy is in DEEP SHIT. Once someone figures it out the t70 rush may become a non issue unless your unprepared.
anyone remember PE armored cars they were considered unbeatable the Americans didn't have the tools to beat them. all of a sudden inverse/maybe a few others came out with a strats that gave the Americans the edge. all of a sudden counter able and very very beatable. no longer was it an insta win button.
i think right now alot/most of the reaction right is kneejerk give it a bit of time. im not saying it needs a nerf or it doesn't. I am saying is its to early to tell.
Failure is always an option. 
It's a happy massacre?! (yes, yes it is!)
Caffeine illegal for WiFi's to ingest in 48 states, 2 colonies, and 1 providences. 
To make most awesome thing in universe combine Bears and Nicholas Cage! 
and remember kids, we didn't start the flame-war!
13 Nov 2013, 15:04 PM
#30
Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4
I think my other beef with the doctrine at the moment, is that the two most reliable counters I can come up with both require a paid commander.
I had success with countering Soviet Industry last night in a 2v2 while playing Assault Gren doctrine. Called in a mech assault group, threw schrecks on them, and chased T70s around in my German clown car. It is actually quite comical watching guys with bazookas riding in a 250 halftrack chase T70s around the map. Then just picked up a PaK into a P4. Was against HansMoleman and some guy if I remember right, so they weren't great but also not terrible.
My second theory is elite troops doctrine. If you know the T70 is coming you can tech after 3 grens, get Pgrens as your 4th unit, schreck them and give them instant vet 3 for the 40% increased accuracy. Follow this up with a PaK and/or 222 each which you can buy vet on should help a lot. PaK with target weak point will do so much work against T70s and the ensuing T34s and the vet 3 222 is actually amazing at scouting/staving off infantry from flanking your PaK while also preventing a flank from a lone T70.
I guess schrecks into Pak/222 work in theory on other commanders, but being able to put schrecks in the 250 really helps with both the survival of the Pgrens, but also being able to actually chase down the T70 and buying Vet on your pgrens/pak/222/stug is such a huge benefit when fighting a mass amount of Soviet armor.
I had success with countering Soviet Industry last night in a 2v2 while playing Assault Gren doctrine. Called in a mech assault group, threw schrecks on them, and chased T70s around in my German clown car. It is actually quite comical watching guys with bazookas riding in a 250 halftrack chase T70s around the map. Then just picked up a PaK into a P4. Was against HansMoleman and some guy if I remember right, so they weren't great but also not terrible.
My second theory is elite troops doctrine. If you know the T70 is coming you can tech after 3 grens, get Pgrens as your 4th unit, schreck them and give them instant vet 3 for the 40% increased accuracy. Follow this up with a PaK and/or 222 each which you can buy vet on should help a lot. PaK with target weak point will do so much work against T70s and the ensuing T34s and the vet 3 222 is actually amazing at scouting/staving off infantry from flanking your PaK while also preventing a flank from a lone T70.
I guess schrecks into Pak/222 work in theory on other commanders, but being able to put schrecks in the 250 really helps with both the survival of the Pgrens, but also being able to actually chase down the T70 and buying Vet on your pgrens/pak/222/stug is such a huge benefit when fighting a mass amount of Soviet armor.
13 Nov 2013, 15:14 PM
#31
Posts: 86
we seen this plenty times last night in 3v3 and 4v4 and it was nothing that a simple pfaust backed up with a pak 40 could not handle.
We did not lose to any soviet industry players in 15 games, but have not seen it in 1v1 or 2v2 yet. still this just requires you to play with something a lot of German players skip most the time, AT guns
will know more today but i think this is not a issue if you adapt unit builds that counter it.
We did not lose to any soviet industry players in 15 games, but have not seen it in 1v1 or 2v2 yet. still this just requires you to play with something a lot of German players skip most the time, AT guns
will know more today but i think this is not a issue if you adapt unit builds that counter it.
13 Nov 2013, 15:17 PM
#32
Posts: 3293
personally I think there is definitely a counter. however the question even with a counter will it still be OP? but I do think that before everyone goes ape-shit it needs a bit of time to see what happens and see how people adapt to it. (to see exactly where it needs to be nerfed/buffed (aka: adjusted). otherwise it will be a back and forth nerf and buff merry go round. (i fucking hate those idk about you.)
I've heard of various things that you can do against it. the only thing that's quote on quote OP so far in 1v1/has going for it is quick vehicles. the manpower takes a very painful hit so having a sustainable infantry force and keeping up tank production is impossible if used right off the bat. if someone countered the t70s the enemy is in DEEP SHIT. Once someone figures it out the t70 rush may become a non issue unless your unprepared.
anyone remember PE armored cars they were considered unbeatable the Americans didn't have the tools to beat them. all of a sudden inverse/maybe a few others came out with a strats that gave the Americans the edge. all of a sudden counter able and very very beatable. no longer was it an insta win button.
i think right now alot/most of the reaction right is kneejerk give it a bit of time. im not saying it needs a nerf or it doesn't. I am saying is its to early to tell.
i added a shit ton to my original post, a few posts up.
Failure is always an option. It's a happy massacre?! (yes, yes it is!) Caffeine illegal for WiFi's to ingest in 48 states, 2 colonies, and 1 providences. To make most awesome thing in universe combine Bears and Nicholas Cage! and remember kids, we didn't start the flame-war!
13 Nov 2013, 15:24 PM
#33
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedNo solid Ost player skips PaK in 1v1. Its absolutely mandatory as a hard AT backline.
Not is there any reason to, since it only takes MP while you are accumalating Fuel for teching and armor anyways. More PGrens are well and fine, but there really is no substitute for a PaK at this point to be ready for Sov armor.
I suppose some Ost strats may skip t2, but there is little reason to do so, because the building itself is quite cheap, you pay the bulk of the fuel on the BP. Ultimately skipping T2 nets you very little in terms of faster armor.
Not is there any reason to, since it only takes MP while you are accumalating Fuel for teching and armor anyways. More PGrens are well and fine, but there really is no substitute for a PaK at this point to be ready for Sov armor.
I suppose some Ost strats may skip t2, but there is little reason to do so, because the building itself is quite cheap, you pay the bulk of the fuel on the BP. Ultimately skipping T2 nets you very little in terms of faster armor.
13 Nov 2013, 15:28 PM
#34
Posts: 480
It might fix the armor problem, but the ability is also tied to the fast building too. Doing that would make that ability pretty useless.
So, it would only convert manpower to fuel income and give you very fast-building vehicles. That seems reasonable for a passive to me. You're still getting a faster first vehicle and the ability to build more faster on account of having more fuel.
Edit: pgmoney, the issue with the PAK is that there will be a very quick second T-70 and then they can honestly just charge it in a 1v1.
13 Nov 2013, 15:40 PM
#35
Posts: 747
Edit: pgmoney, the issue with the PAK is that there will be a very quick second T-70 and then they can honestly just charge it in a 1v1.
Exactly. If you don't manage to kill the first T-70 before he rolls out the second one it's pretty much gg.
13 Nov 2013, 15:53 PM
#36
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
Exactly. If you don't manage to kill the first T-70 before he rolls out the second one it's pretty much gg.
This.
PaK is a directional deterrant. T70 can just do its business elsewhere till the 2nd one rolls out.
A single PaK hit, which is all your likely to get, is quite easily repaired.
Shreks, at 120 muni, are incredibly ineffective vs microed T70s. It can easily yoyo in and out of range, deliberstely resetting the fire cycle, and getting 1-2 model kills on the PGrens while doing it for horrific MP bleed. Not to mention for that Muni investment youve not placed Mines, used RNade and not upgraded LMGs and you can flst out forget about FHT (I dont include G43s since CP2 is usually after T70s roll out, in my experience).
Mines. Absolutely. However well microed T70s can and do come at unorthodox angles of approach thanks to small size and speed. Also generaloy needs atleast one Faust to finish it off afterwards, while you are being shot by it.
222. No. Just No.
Ultimately the only sure counter is T3. But in order to get there, if you cant stop the first and atleast the second T70, you are utterly fucked.
13 Nov 2013, 19:47 PM
#37
Posts: 299
I think the easiest way to balance the commander is tie the fuel and mp reduction to territory controlled in some way. The problem with it now is you only need to hold a few points and a vp or two, and vet t3 units can cap. The early vehicles then give you map control once they hit.
And lets not forget that you don't even have to get the commander but you have it as one of your options and can just get one of the other ones and your opponent is stuck with things they don't need.
This commander doesn't even need to be used with fast t-70's but can be used mid and late game, this commander has so many options it be used for, and all you need to do is make sure you don't build too much inf, which long term won' be that hard for people to figure out.
Add in the kv-2 at the end and all your German inf based AT starts becoming obsolete, but you can't build armor as much as the soviet can to supplement the loss of usefulness of your mp based at.
It allows you to have crappy map control early (or not since 3 cons and an engi can put a lot of pressure on Germans for 6 minutes). To then get units to take back map control, and the only thing you have to do well is not lose units and not overbuild them.
And lets not forget that you don't even have to get the commander but you have it as one of your options and can just get one of the other ones and your opponent is stuck with things they don't need.
This commander doesn't even need to be used with fast t-70's but can be used mid and late game, this commander has so many options it be used for, and all you need to do is make sure you don't build too much inf, which long term won' be that hard for people to figure out.
Add in the kv-2 at the end and all your German inf based AT starts becoming obsolete, but you can't build armor as much as the soviet can to supplement the loss of usefulness of your mp based at.
It allows you to have crappy map control early (or not since 3 cons and an engi can put a lot of pressure on Germans for 6 minutes). To then get units to take back map control, and the only thing you have to do well is not lose units and not overbuild them.
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14 Nov 2013, 05:45 AM
#38
Posts: 829
You can get that doctrine after you get 3-4 conscripts, you suffer no capping power decrease and you can call a T70 on the field between minute 5 and 6, having a couple of T70 and a T34 by minute 9. Looking forward to see how Germans can beat that.
Well buy Vet3 Pgrens and some AT guns. Bide your time and wait for Tiger Ace? In the meantime save up on MP.
Is that how its supposed to be countered or am I off there?
LOL
14 Nov 2013, 05:46 AM
#39
Posts: 396
Con!,
If you played COH you would know that before the game was "stale", as you understand it, it was almost unplayable because Relic refused for the longest time to do anything about Kangaroos being into your base by 7 minutes and then crushing your troops over and over again. Before that, trenches and gliders crushed all your people. The PE infantry spam and ACs were ridiculous. ToV represents this shift where relic nose dived from legendary to comically insane.
VCoH and CoH+TOV were done by separate teams if I remember correctly. The TOV expansion caused ridiculous problems to the game essentially ruining a perfect rts and running off over 3/4s of the initial community.
Guess who is in charge of this game? The track record simply isn't there. Nothing that they have said or done in this game thus far has been anything to the contrary of a big fucking letdown and this is about to make it even worse.
Mark my words.
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