"makes it a tank that if you have to retreat with it and you're not flanked/ambushed, you're playing it wrong."
But it CAN escape flanks and ambushes, that's my entire point. Its superior moving accuracy and great mobility means that it can run away and fight back reliably, while other tanks are missing shots
No matter how much veterancy you slap onto SU85, it will grow no turret.
TBH the only situation where turret would be useful is if you're flanked or chasing around corners, first case, TD would die anyway without support, 2nd case no 60 range TD should ever be in that spot anyway.
Turret is quite important in certain situations, but I'd put more value on focused sight.
Jackson is a king of speed and maneuverability. It's a tank with a position and role brilliantly defined. Glass cannon by definition. It needs no nerfs/buffs. And Jackson can't really escape any ambush. 1v1 or 2v1 engagement it can escape if it leaves immediately and has luck on it's side (It's better to be born without a male reproductive organ, than without luck, cause with luck, your MRO will grow out of nowhere), but it's low armour really makes it a tank that if you have to retreat with it and you're not flanked/ambushed, you're playing it wrong. I never used Jackson on the same control unit bind (ctrl-X) with any other unit. Jacksons are their own bind always behind other units. Also, sight is important here too as a factor. You need vision to utilize range.
Glass cannon by definition? I'd like to read your definition of glass cannon because mine isn't "every bit as durable as any other allied td but also able to escape damage easier and also able to dish it out better" it's "can deal great damage but if you misplay slightly it's toast"
TBH the only situation where turret would be useful is if you're flanked or chasing around corners, first case, TD would die anyway without support, 2nd case no 60 range TD should ever be in that spot anyway
1st case the su85 might die even with support. It may never get a single shot off on the tank, whereas if jackson gets 1 then all you need is 1 snare to save its life while its runs away OR maybe even kills the tank once it re-establishes range advantage
2nd case, the entire greatness of the Jackson is that it CAN chase much better than FF or SU85. If a tank gets behind an los blocker as its running away, the Jackson is far far better at securing the kill AND at escaping after its done it
Focused sight is awesome but it also amplifies the disadvantage of no turret if you use it. Now its even easier to flank
Very bad idea. Panther (heavy armor, speed, penetration and top MG) with 60 range.
What I proposed was not only about the Panther – Also I proposed a Panther with 60 range but lower armor, lower health and no top MG. (other tank destroyers would be able to kill a panther in 4 shots if we lower health to 800)
FF is by far the worst TD. Not sure how people think it's somehow good. Super vulnerable to blitzing P4s or Panthers, super vulnerable against ATGs and handheld AT. Cant reliably penetrate heavy tanks and has a reload that makes you wonder if the thing is bugged. Just spamming 6 pounders and using the fuel for AVRE, Comet or Croc is WAY better than going FF
As someone who builds FF every game as brits, I'd say this is wrong. The FF may look bad on paper because of its long reload, but the first round goes out just as fast as others. I know you know that the FF deals 200 per shot, but a lot of players don't know how useful that is. The FF combo is probably the fastest burst damaging combo left in the game. You can take down a 640HP medium in about 11 seconds if both those shots pen. That's faster than ANY other TD in the game including the StuG and JP4. It won't win without support like the jackson, and it won't self spot to 70 range like the su85, but 11 second TTK with about 9 seconds TTK at vet 2 is pretty strong when your opponent steps a little bit too far forward with his P4 and those mistakes can be very costly.
Agree with katitof that Tulips are extra, but my question is: Is HHF seriously saying FF is bad rn? Or that standardization will make it bad? I’m confused.
I simply replied to vipper challenging his calls for a redesign to TDs. Because he's trying to fight problems that don't exist.
I don't think anyone seriously believes FF is OP vs mediums, but he somehow lumps everything in with Jackson performance as if FF and SU85 can perform the same.
Jackson and panther can back away shooting and scooting vs such med rushes. FF and SU85 can not.
But I do think FF popcap is a point or two high, trying to field a FF and Churchill literally eats up all of your late game pop.
What I proposed was not only about the Panther – Also I proposed a Panther with 60 range but lower armor, lower health and no top MG. (other tank destroyers would be able to kill a panther in 4 shots if we lower health to 800)
But this will remove diversity from the game.
Turret TD (Panther, FF + Jackson) allways win versus SU-85/JgPzIV.
If you want more tanks battles, lets make T-34/85 stock unit and SU-85 doctrinal.
I simply replied to vipper challenging his calls for a redesign to TDs. Because he's trying to fight problems that don't exist.
And here lies your problem, you feel the need to "challenge" me.
At this point I have to point out that I did not start this thread I simply point out to OP that changing the damage is not enough to for make the a distinction "between heavy TDs" and "medium Tds". If the "heavy TDs" are more accurate, have more damage and penetration they will simply be "better" TDs.
I don't think anyone seriously believes FF is OP vs mediums, but he somehow lumps everything in with Jackson performance as if FF and SU85 can perform the same.
Jackson and panther can back away shooting and scooting vs such med rushes. FF and SU85 can not.
But I do think FF popcap is a point or two high, trying to field a FF and Churchill literally eats up all of your late game pop.
And here lies your problem, you feel the need to "challenge" me.
At this point I have to point out that I did not start this thread I simply point out to OP that changing the damage is not enough to for make the a distinction "between heavy TDs" and "medium Tds". If the "heavy TDs" are more accurate, have more damage and penetration they will simply be "better" TDs.
There's simply nothing wrong with discussing and challenging other people's viewpoints. This is a forum, this is what forums are for.
If you want to decrease jackson or panther effectivemess vs mediums actually the best answer would be to mirror them with the firefly. It's by far weakest TD vs mediums in the game but still counters a heavy tank with the correct micro and support in its sniper role.
Of course this would mean hefty DPS nerfs and mobility nerfs to the other TDs as I pointed out in the panther thread...
If you want to decrease TD effectivemess vs mediums actually the best answer would be to mirror them with the firefly. It's by far weakest TD vs mediums in the game but still counters a heavy tank with the correct micro and support in its sniper role.
Of course this would mean hefty DPS nerfs to the other TDs as I pointed out in the panther thread...
Nope the distance FF is not that big specially since it can delete a medium with one reload. And there reason why it feel to you that FF is up vs mediums is simply because other TDs are OP vs mediums.
If you are losing FF to PzIV you are probably doing something wrong.
Actually a Panther with the sight, accuracy, damage and vet bonuses of the FF would be OP vs mediums even it had that same reload and did not have Tulips. A vet 3 FF kills a medium with 2 reloads.
The game is designed around asymmetrical fractions. We all like this difference in gameplay but admittedly it creates problems in terms of balance and creates “crutch units” that fill the holes in the army composition (Elephant, Panic Puma). I think that we can keep the asymmetrical strengths and weaknesses of the fractions and still have equality in terms of army capabilities. In terms of balance, I think that the biggest problem right now is the tank destroyers. With that in mind I propose the following standardization.
(I acknowledge that there are other glaring balance problems, but please keep to the topic)
All armies should have medium tank destroyer and a heavy tank destroyer. In terms of availability and cost efficiency each unit should be designed to counter a specific set of targets. This is how I envision the unit tiers:
Heavy Tank Destroyers (Range 60 - 200 damage)
Jackson, Sherman Firefly, SU-85, Panther
Medium Tank Destroyers (Range 50 - 160 damage)
M10, SU-76, StuG G, Jagdpanzer IV
Heavy Tanks
Health divisible by 200
Medium Tanks
Health divisible by 160
Heavy tank destroyers should do 200 damage and have a range of 60. In terms of targets, all heavy tanks health should be divisible by 200. This will make the heavy tank destroyers more cost-efficient vs the heavy tanks without improving the efficiency vs medium tanks. Changes in rate of fire should be made to keep current time to kill vs heavy tanks the same while nerfing the time to kill medium tanks. In terms of units this mostly effects the panthers’ offensive capabilities. The health of the panther should in term be brought down to 800 and the armour should also be significantly lowered. The machine gunner could be removed to emphasize the tank destroying nature of the unit.
Medium tank destroyers should do 160 damage and have a range of 50. This means nerfing the range of the Jagdpanzer IV and the SU-76. The SU-76 should, however, have its damage increased to 160. Currently the Brits and the USF does not have a stock medium tanks destroyer. The M10 should be given to both of those amies as a stock unit (this alleviates the problem of the Jackson/Firefly having to counter to all armour)
Addendum: The Panic Puma is designated as a range 50 tank destroyer. Its range should be brought down to 40 to prevent it from countering all light tanks. At the same time, it should be mad available to Wehr as a stock unit.
- SaintPauli
You are trying to kill game. No. You shall not kill asymmetrical design of this game.
You shall not kill asymmetrical design of this game.
Asymmetrical design started to die first patches after release. There was a time Elefant had spotting option like SU85 etc. and more, after the years a lot of gimmicks were moved to other fractions to balance them, that is a positive step. Ostheer got nerfed to make place for OKW. Then brits were designed as Ostheer-clone etc.
Now have so many spotting options for soviets fraction, non-doc cancer = nobrainer. Fan-boy move.
Can community stop fighing from fraction positions? Simply make them balanced, without any fan-boy shit?
Now have so many spotting options for soviets fraction, non-doc cancer = nobrainer. Fan-boy move.
Can community stop fighing from fraction positions? Simply make them balanced, without any fan-boy shit?
On this forum? No
Some people play all fractions and their opinions are very useful.
But most play only one side and would rather not publish their own playercard.
TD from my opinion (good know only okw and soviet) and team games experience:
Su-85 (with lack of medium tanks) is only way fight versus panthers and tigers (with using fuel). Penals are good, but you need luck (as with shreck inf.). You simply cannot use fuel more appropriately, because T34/76 have no chance in team games.
JgPzIV is practically unit, but OKW mostly dont need it (Shreck and rak quite easily crush soviet TD). Panther and KT are more useful and fun.
JT is king of late game, but it is doctrinal.
Now have so many spotting options for soviets fraction, non-doc cancer = nobrainer. Fan-boy move.
uhhhhhh OKW has Puma with map hack at vet 5, Kubel with map hack at vet 1, IR HT with map hack at 5 fuel that's turning into double sight pios, Luchs/Jagdpanzer IV that can move with camo and spot/scout, and doctrinal scout planes.
Ostheer has 42 sight Pios, sniper, Scout Car with vet sight increase, and lots of doctrinal scouting options.
Complaining about Soviet non-doctrinal scouting is absurd and hilarious.
uhhhhhh OKW has Puma with map hack at vet 5, Kubel with map hack at vet 1, IR HT with map hack at 5 fuel that's turning into double sight pios, Luchs/Jagdpanzer IV that can move with camo and spot/scout, and doctrinal scout planes.
Ostheer has 42 sight Pios, sniper, Scout Car with vet sight increase, and lots of doctrinal scouting options.
Complaining about Soviet non-doctrinal scouting is absurd and hilarious.
Now we are at a point we can speak. Most things I would change without any contradiction.
But it seems you are a really salty man, doesn't interrested in balancing at all, hm?
OKW
a. You mean "SdKfz 234/2 will reveal enemy troops in a radius of 35." I never thought it is such a good ability, but as passive one is was ok. Not like 222. But that is something we can speak about.
b. You mean "Detection-ability", yea. Same as a., it is a nice gimmick, but nothing game-destroying like UHU-bug or Soviets sight-buff abilities.
c. UHU will be changed. Now it generates normal sight. Don't forget T70 can nearlly generate same sight, SU85 can spot for itself with same sight.
d. the move + cammo was something I criticize since release of OKW. It should be a stationary ability for Jagdpanzer4. Luchs is a troll-vehicle, never heard that someone was angry because of its cammo, it has bad sight.
Ostheer:
a. They have the sight because they suck at fighing (maybe worst fighting unit for its price) and Ostheer lacks in sight units. Instead of giving them something else they made Pios be recoons-troups. I am no fan of that too. Better remove Scope, give 222 same sight-ability as T70.
b. The sight becomes 60 I think, on a vehicle able to take 2 shots and then it is gone... for me no big deal? Is it? 222 is a bad unit with a lot if potetioal to balace Ostheer with passive stuff for lategame.
c. German recoon is worst ingame. Let me explain: Alliis AA is way more potential as Ostheer's and OKW's.
You don't believe? Testing it needs you 10 min.
Now we are at a point we can speak. Most things I would change without any contradiction.
But it seems you are a really salty man, doesn't interrested in balancing at all, hm? Yes I am salty and I'm not interested in balancing because I disagree with your incredible balance opinions. I should be put in jail.
OKW
a. You mean "SdKfz 234/2 will reveal enemy troops in a radius of 35." I never thought it is such a good ability, but as passive one is was ok. Not like 222. But that is something we can speak about. It's a free passive maphack. Not sure what the 222 does better. Still it's at vet 5 so nobody complains.
b. You mean "Detection-ability", yea. Same as a., it is a nice gimmick, but nothing game-destroying like UHU-bug or Soviets sight-buff abilities. No proof of soviet abilities being game destroying.
c. UHU will be changed. Now it generates normal sight. Don't forget T70 can nearlly generate same sight, SU85 can spot for itself with same sight. 80 sight is not normal sight and T70 does not get anywhere near 80 sight and neither does the su85 which also gets a small cone and a big cooldown debuff when it activates it.
d. the move + cammo was something I criticize since release of OKW. It should be a stationary ability for Jagdpanzer4. Luchs is a troll-vehicle, never heard that someone was angry because of its cammo, it has bad sight. Still there, still something very useful and unique.
Ostheer:
a. They have the sight because they suck at fighing (maybe worst fighting unit for its price) and Ostheer lacks in sight units. Instead of giving them something else they made Pios be recoons-troups. I am no fan of that too. Better remove Scope, give 222 same sight-ability as T70. Pios are perfectly fine and the 222 is perfectly fine as is. Stock T70 sight would be a huge buff that would be unfair.
c. German recoon is worst ingame. Let me explain: Alliis AA is way more potential as Ostheer's and OKW's.
You don't believe? Testing it needs you 10 min. Yeah the Quad AA is OP at shooting down planes, that's got nothing to do with UKF/USF AA and the Soviet player doesn't always get the quad AA in 1v1.
Rosbone: It is also hard to expect Relic to help Coh2 when they cant even make working menus in Coh3 yet, 2 years after release and at full price+ for DLCs. Thats like asking a fish to do calculus. Today, 02:58 AM
Rosbone: But this last patch has made good progress for grabbing players. All we can hope is Coh3 gets to Coh2s quality level before everyone abandons the franchise. Its Relic so they will completely f*%k it up as usual. But its a hope/cope. Today, 02:55 AM
Rosbone: Relic wants Coh2 to fail so players will migrate to Coh3. It is hard to blame them since Coh3 sucks so bad. It needs all the help it can get. Today, 02:53 AM
Soheil: Coh2 is dead , full of map hackers , and lelic knows that but ... Today, 01:26 AM
aerafield: Oh how I missed the weird spam bots, welcome back Yesterday, 13:05 PM
situsgbo777: Platform game online terpercaya dengan berbagai pilihan permainan seru dan peluang menang besar. Nikmati pengalaman bermain terbaik hanya di GBO777 Yesterday, 06:48 AM
OKSpitfire: @aerafield that does sound familiar Last Sunday, 09:06 AM
Lady Xenarra: Ah, the gren faust-replacing-rifles bug/exploit. Last Saturday, 18:24 PM
aerafield: CoH3 high elo is truly the dumbest CoH experience that ever existed Last Saturday, 17:25 PM
aerafield: @OKSpitfire tbh I find it quite challenging to get the Pershing in time, having to suffer through the CoH3 tickrate and this endless bullshit meta of massive blobs going back and forth to the forward heal truck Last Saturday, 17:24 PM
OKSpitfire: Well... going to be seeing the Pershing a lot for a little while, that thing is a monster. Last Saturday, 11:44 AM
NigelBallsworth: axis stuff is getting more meme by the second Last Friday, 23:32 PM
aerafield: Cloaked instapin MGs at 0cp. I wanna see no more crying about the Dingo while that shit is in the game Last Friday, 20:38 PM
Willy Pete: And only on annihilation, and I have to let the AI live long enough... Last Friday, 02:04 AM
Willy Pete: Pershing is absurd, but ive still only gotten to use it against AI Last Friday, 02:03 AM
Lady Xenarra: WTB Pershing for Axis, that is all Last Thursday, 13:32 PM
donofsandiego: Return of the chatGPT writing prompt. Lets see how shinasukac responds to these questions utilizing the Socratic Method. Maybe he will give us an interesting look into his opinions Last Thursday, 02:34 AM
Willy Pete: I havent even seen a pershing yet. Coh3 games still move too fast for it lol Last Thursday, 00:30 AM
shinasukac: kingtiger=kingjoker Last Wednesday, 16:27 PM
Lady Xenarra: Has anyone actually used the KT much? My experience is that the match is usually over long before I get the CPs for it Last Wednesday, 14:35 PM
Rosbone: Can someone message me the day you can look at Coh3 and not face palm yourself in disbelief that actual humans worked on it? Much appreciated. Last Wednesday, 06:40 AM
Rosbone: The only way to feel good about Coh3 is to never look at Coh3. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. Last Wednesday, 06:37 AM
Rosbone: Observer mode sucks, player stats pages are scatter brained mess, etc etc etc Last Wednesday, 06:35 AM
Rosbone: It is really hard to tell people to buy the DLC with feeling like they are throwing their money down the toilet for a nearly dead game. But Big Tonks!!! Oh well, not my problem. 25 Feb 2025, 18:12 PM
Rosbone: No 4v4 maps, busted menus 2 years after release, still have not fixed janky sounds people have complained about for over 2 years, etc etc. 25 Feb 2025, 18:10 PM
Rosbone: And the skirmish menus are still at a BETA level. Just the largest game play mode completely ignored... again. 25 Feb 2025, 18:09 PM
Willy Pete: Oh wtf. Yeah the crossing remake was in the 2v2 demo. No more 3s and 4s is a bummer tho 25 Feb 2025, 16:42 PM
aerafield: What? No, he means that all the new maps are for 1v1. Though Im pretty sure they will be playable in 2v2 as well 25 Feb 2025, 15:50 PM
Willy Pete: Are the maps really locked behind dlc? Surely they must be in the regular update 25 Feb 2025, 15:22 PM
Rosbone: I would like to join in celebration with the 9% of Coh3 MP players who are getting ALL of the new maps. Woohoo! #3Tards 21 Feb 2025, 19:22 PM
OKSpitfire: I hope that at least one of heavies is a like-for-like reskin of the coh 2 ISU-152. I miss that thing. 21 Feb 2025, 10:23 AM
Rosbone: Buy our cool new large tanks that will never get played on the 4 new 1v1 maps added. Perfect synergy! 20 Feb 2025, 19:23 PM
Rosbone: Everyone ready for some deep penetration 20 Feb 2025, 17:13 PM
Lady Xenarra: I'm sure the ppl who defended it as balanced for Allies will be screaming like they got scaled with boiling water, in COH3. How the tables turn. 20 Feb 2025, 11:33 AM
Willy Pete: I think it was nuts with any engine damage. Especially on superheavies 20 Feb 2025, 07:03 AM
aerafield: Personally I think without the ram ability, it's worse than loiters for example 20 Feb 2025, 00:09 AM
Willy Pete: It combined well with most slowing abilities, not just ram stuns 19 Feb 2025, 23:36 PM
Willy Pete: Only??? I think not being able to shoot it down and the ramp up effect also had something to do with it 19 Feb 2025, 23:34 PM
aerafield: AT overwatch was broken only because it came with the faction of T34 ramming 19 Feb 2025, 22:29 PM
Willy Pete: Love to see Relic really learning from their past mistakes. Let's bring back the dumbest ability in coh2, and charge money for it 19 Feb 2025, 20:34 PM
Willy Pete: New DAK commander will have AT overwatch as alternate choice to elefant 19 Feb 2025, 20:33 PM
aaa: Funy thing new players dont know that. And are trying to compete vs hacks 19 Feb 2025, 10:33 AM
aaa: Online gaming is trash in general, not just coh. On high level there are all cheats in most games 19 Feb 2025, 10:24 AM
aaa: 2 cheaters in 3 days. MH and DH 19 Feb 2025, 09:57 AM
aerafield: I am a simple man, I build Humvees with Pathfinders and Missile Launchers inside, I am happy 18 Feb 2025, 20:57 PM
Lady Xenarra: aerafield lamevee spammer confirmed 18 Feb 2025, 20:42 PM
adamírcz: Might be onto somethin here, combine side armour existing, maps where flanking is a viable option, and hopefully also heavies actually being less manouverable than mediums (lookin at you coh2), and it might be fun gameplay 17 Feb 2025, 13:39 PM
Willy Pete: Shouldn't coh3 heavies actually have insane front armor values? The glory days of 400+ Kt armor wouldn't be as bad when side armor is a thing. Not to say its a good idea lol 14 Feb 2025, 23:14 PM
aerafield: But then again, maybe CoH3 superheavies should actually have insane armor values because the whole game is designed for the clumsy & inept anyway 14 Feb 2025, 23:04 PM
aerafield: It's like you have to coordinate an entire orchestra of abilities and the correct units, meanwhile your opponent just clicks his 1 superheavy tank occasionally... 14 Feb 2025, 23:01 PM
aerafield: the giga frontal armor also made these units too oppressive in average or low ELO games 14 Feb 2025, 22:59 PM
aerafield: Massive HP pool but reasonable amount of armor is way healthier design 14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM
aerafield: Say what you want, but the titanium frontal armor design of coh2 superheavies was bullshit. Too many bad players not getting punished for their bad micro because penetration RNG carries them 14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM
Willy Pete: Also the attack ground with the pak40 looked perfect, that Pershing should be dead 14 Feb 2025, 19:18 PM
Willy Pete: Ahh just saw the other one that died. Some bad rng I think but there was an AT gun at med range for a chunk of that fight 14 Feb 2025, 19:14 PM