Please Fix Guard Motor Coordination and Counterattack in 2v2

Title is self explainatory but that is more than a *crying* topic.

Double soviets are super tedious to play against as OST from my experience with those doctrines especially double Guard Motor Coordination (GMC). I'll explain my complains with detail now.

IMPORTANT NOTE : THIS THREAD IS EXCLUSIVELY FROM OST PERSPECTIVE

Guard Motor Coordination
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T-34/85

Everything the GMC doctrine is super good and if both opponents take that you are basically facing a horde of T-34/85s literally unbeatable by other means than tellers which you can not afford in big numbers because of their cost, your infantry requiring muni based upgrades to be viable, and typical OST muni starvation also it heavily depends on luck to hit one without being detected by sweepers.


Guards Rifle Infantry

Guards (IMO) are borderline OP. Reason being them being very effective counter to any light vehicle AND being super strong at range while being able to drop a (strong) nade at their feet. Grens will loose to them at range, Pgrens will die before they can reach them, Ostwind will get countered by them, Brumbarr will get buttoned and hit to death by a single AT gun. Leaving you with the lackluster and rahter expensive to get Pwerfer to counter them.

Mark Vehicle

The buff this ability gives is fine IMO the only problem is it stays on target for too long.


Counterattack Tactics
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B-4 203mm Howitzer

Often considered a meme or RNG cannon, in 2v2 games this thing can hit your base from its base. Yes it is RNG dependent but any medium being oneshotted IN YOUR BASE is absolutely unfun and unfair.


For Mother Russia

This ability and Penals raw power AND satchels is an absolute nightmare. As OST you have to rely on your MG42 to do everything and cover your flanks with PGrens. But that ability nullifies that. So a blob of Penals can run to your face spank your MG42 or Pgrens alike, satchel any bunker or emplacement OR even worse is he can run to your retreat path and throw a satchel to the path. Everyone was crying when falls were doing the same thing but they couldn't run up to your tank and homing satchel it.



I tried to be as constructive as possible in that thread so please don't comment if you are going to thrash talk or simply call L2P. If you think those are legit things then please enlighen me with their counters and counter arguments against my points.

For Mother Russia won't have sprint while in combat next patch.

Agreed that B4 is terrible design.

For Mother Russia won't have sprint while in combat next patch.
.

Thank god and balance team then.

I will say only one thing. Guards grenade is by no means strong. They are not borderline OP. They eat ammo like crazy. Perhaps you should play soviets too just to get a feel for them.

They eat ammo like crazy. Perhaps you should play soviets too just to get a feel for them.

That is my problem. When i tried those i just wacked my opponents. And considering soviets are swimming in munitions compared to other factions (excluding UKF) muni is never a problem.

1- You always have a doctrine which can 1 shot Howitzers on teamgames. B4 was a bad unit design but it's non issue since it lost it's precision strike.

2- Unless you provide a replay of the game you had issues with, i think nothing you are complaining for is an issue at the moment.

If you are main issue are Guards buttoning, you pick a doctrine with smoke. Having any indirect fire destroys Guards as they can't do shit on the move.
You don't push Guards with PGs. They are defensive unit and PG are not an "assault" unit. At least not against any unit with decent DPS (unless G43). If you can drop at them from cover/shot blocker sure do so. But no in open field.

You don't spam PIV to deal with T3485.

Mark vehicle problem is that the debuff is not tied to the plane been alive or not IMO.

B4 is still meme/niche.

FMR + Penals PTRS. Penals late game are only snare units. If he has more than 2 he has no AI.


From the rant, it looks to me like you play random 2v2 and you might possible be facing an AT team.

B4 was a bad unit design

"hit nothing or wipe everything from across the map" is still pretty bad design in my book

From the rant, it looks to me like you play random 2v2 and you might possible be facing an AT team.

Thanks for the reply. But T34-85s are cutting everything what is made of flesh and Guards are literally unbeatable by OST infantry, they beat MG grens at range and decimate Pgrens if you try to close on them.

I went for StuGs for countering T-34/85s but them being case-mate and considering T-34/85s mobility i often damaged them but with their 800HP they simply overrun and flank them easily.


And for FMR, my opponent had 2 un-upgraded penals with one having PTRS. That one PTRS, running like madman, constantly forced my armor back while other two handled the MG-42 with sprint.

"hit nothing or wipe everything from across the map" is still pretty bad design in my book

+1

"hit nothing or wipe everything from across the map" is still pretty bad design in my book

I'd give it more warning I think and increase reliability a bit. Kinda make it an onmap off map. Add a munitions cost to firing (say 50mu), when it fires give it a Sturm tiger tinnitus ring and when it hits widen out the aoe far aoe a bit. Now it's got more than enough warning AND an built in prevention for over use AND if you do use it, even a near miss will damage infantry. A bit better, more reliable but all the counter play in the world.

I'd give it more warning I think and increase reliability a bit. Kinda make it an onmap off map. Add a munitions cost to firing (say 50mu), when it fires give it a Sturm tiger tinnitus ring and when it hits widen out the aoe far aoe a bit. Now it's got more than enough warning AND an built in prevention for over use AND if you do use it, even a near miss will damage infantry. A bit better, more reliable but all the counter play in the world.

this would be pretty neat indeed. i've actually proposed a similar treatment for the sturmtiger some time ago, which would fit a lot better than the current implementation

Let’s address the main issue here, namely how do you deal with each of these issues? What units do you use vs the T34/85s? How do you deal with the B4? How do you deal with For mother russia?

Let’s address the main issue here, namely how do you deal with each of these issues? What units do you use vs the T34/85s? How do you deal with the B4? How do you deal with For mother russia?

VS T34/85s -> StuGs with PGrens (to cover their flanks)

B-4 -> Off-Map if i can afford (by the time i often lost something to it) or Some sort of dive with P4 if I have the upper hand

For Mother Russia -> I couldn't find any solution other than double MG-42s and moving them together

Guards -> I have absolutely no clue.

Guards -> I have absolutely no clue.

Stormtroopers. You can use camo to approach Guards if they defend behind cover or lay an ambush yourself. Also rockets.

VS T34/85s -> StuGs with PGrens (to cover their flanks)

B-4 -> Off-Map if i can afford (by the time i often lost something to it) or Some sort of dive with P4 if I have the upper hand

For Mother Russia -> I couldn't find any solution other than double MG-42s and moving them together

Guards -> I have absolutely no clue.

Vs T34/85s = StuGGs

Vs B4 = off map/right click it with AT gun or StuGG while on cooldown, or get your okw partner to drop arty with panzer commander, or decrew with inf and attack move empty B4.

Vs FMR = wire narrow paths and put some S-mines in bigger paths on your flanks, grenades, prediction panzerwerfer, schu mines from 251, Brummbar

Vs Guards = engage in prepared positions with Grens and flank with Pgrens. They have a weak grenade and you can abuse them with a lv if you get their health down first.

Another noobs BS

What a man you are...

Meanwhile laughs in assault support and jaeger armor.

GMC has been meta for years now. It's a strong doctrine, but also one of the best designs. Everything in there gives you utility, but nothing is overly strong imo. Also people have rarely complained, especially considering how long and often it is in the meta now.

You counters are well chosen overall. I think it must have something to do with general gameplay style. I've also seen that camo works well against Guards. Ass grens should actually be fine as well, although the sprint costs muni.

To counter an enemy you first need to think about what the strengths and weaknesses are. Then, you need to figure out how to play to these weaknesses.

If you look at guards, you have:
+ High long range anti-infantry DPS when stationary
+ Anti LV guns
+ Temporary snare
+ Can jump to yellow cover in the open
- Terrible DPS while moving
- High model MP costs for Soviets
- Short range nade, more for self defense
- Snare can be broken by smoke

So how does one play against this? Well, you could for example exploit the relative high model cost and terrible on the move DPS with a sniper. Or, you could exploit the guards stationary nature with a mortar. Just trying to outgun them with LMG grens is not enough as you are playing into their strengths.

The same can be done on a docrinal level. Guards Motor has:
+ mark target
+ strong premium tanks
+ guards
+ 120mm mortar
- no off map bombs
- no howitzers
- no heavy tanks

How do you deal with this? Well, Mark Target is good against heavy tanks so probably best to avoid those. But there are no bombs and the premium tanks have fairly short range so Teller mine play and PAK43s are an option. Howitzers are also very hard to counter and can rack up a ton of kills against the low mobility guards.

A good counter doctrine to pick for example would be Storm Doctrine. The lack of recon runs and the guards poor performance on the move can be exploited with mid-range Pgren ambushes. The agressive nature of T34/85's can be exploited with Riegel mines, and the lack of bombin run can be exploited using Howitzers, which are good against the 120mms, guards, and can even deal with Katys if you use counter barrage.

Try to analyze doctrines and unit composistions in this way and it will help you a lot in finding counters. Good luck!