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5CP Puma is way too late

6 Mar 2020, 20:18 PM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



You do realize OKW has even faster access to the Puma than the Soviets have access to the T70 and it’s not an issue, right? T70 is perfectly viable vs okw despite the puma meta.

And as I have already said, they are paying for that with no healing, which means greater muni expenditude or greater attrition, puma is also never build first-luchs is, unless you lost early game, in which case you failed at OKW.

Seriously, argument like that equals to "lets give soviets stock LMGs, it works for UKF, so it'll work for soviets too!".
6 Mar 2020, 20:23 PM
#42
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


And as I have already said, they are paying for that with no healing


*Laughs in Feurestorm*
6 Mar 2020, 20:24 PM
#43
avatar of Diablo

Posts: 20


You've completely missed the point I was making. Shock units have short window of opportunity, if their hardcounters arrive too soon, they are either removed from the game or in need of a buff - do you want to have early puma at potential cost of even stronger T-70? Because its very unlikely it'll keep getting nerfed.
Well i do think that getting a puma would be more expensive since the rework of tech tree of ost while it is cheaper to get a t70.



I dare you to find a singular post I made across last 2 years that would even remotely point to that.
If you can't do that, then keep the strawman away, there are no crows here to scare away.
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2019, 12:39 PMKatitof

Volks were 10mp more then cons for ages and they have roflstomped them without contest.
20mp difference for mainline is pretty significant.
You asked and you shall receive. I have never seen volks winning one on one engagement against rifleman if they both have same cover. Not even going to count 2 minute pineapples that you can throw. Link: https://www.coh2.org/topic/98344/rifles-overperforming/page/9
6 Mar 2020, 20:26 PM
#44
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2020, 20:24 PMDiablo
You asked and you shall receive. I have never seen volks winning one on one engagement against rifleman if they both have same cover. Not even going to count 2 minute pineapples that you can throw. Link: https://www.coh2.org/topic/98344/rifles-overperforming/page/9

And... which part of that post makes you think I'm talking about rifles here?
Is it the part where I specifically name cons?
6 Mar 2020, 20:27 PM
#45
avatar of Diablo

Posts: 20


And... which part of that post makes you think I'm talking about rifles here?
Is it the part where I specifically name cons?
For you I posted the link...... https://www.coh2.org/topic/98344/rifles-overperforming/page/9
And you were talking about volks compared to rifleman...... you were quoting this
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2019, 12:34 PMLago


Riflemen are roughly 8% more expensive than Volksgrenadiers.

Your hyperbole is doing no favours to your credibility.
6 Mar 2020, 20:59 PM
#47
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Of course. But the circumstances have changed quite drastically since then. Now Cons (and so an abundance of AT grenades) are viable. UKF have snares. USF had a rework that made sideteching easier. Amongst other big meta changes. The doctrine itself has lost a significant amount of synergy because of the changes to the Command P4 (locking it behind tech) and will lose more because of the Puma's build time.

The doctrine will now more than ever be a gamble that might fill a gap in Ostheer's early/mid game but leaves practically nothing for the (transition into) the late game.

Plenty of changes to make it worth exploring options to let the Ostheer Puma make a return I think.
And as I said, it's a superficial change, so it's easily reverted if need be.


It's not an issue of balance against Soviet, USF and UKF, it's an issue of balance against the rest of Ostheer. Unless you intend to make Tiger doctrines a similar power spike (and I really hope you don't) then Mobile Defence doesn't have this big late game sacrifice to outweigh its huge early-mid buff: it's got T4 just like the others. If anything, it's better at the late game than German Infantry or Jaeger Infantry because it's got the smoke dischargers to keep its tanks alive.
6 Mar 2020, 22:27 PM
#48
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 479

I would say just make it a call-in again, and maybe replace Panzer Tactician with Smoke Bombs from the other Ostheer commanders. 5 CP would probably be alright if you didn't have to wait another 30-45 seconds for it to also build after that.
7 Mar 2020, 04:04 AM
#49
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1



*Laughs in Feurestorm*


Go for luch/puma while picking feurestorm meaning you cant use flame munition, meaning there are still trade off.
7 Mar 2020, 06:41 AM
#50
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2020, 20:24 PMDiablo

You asked and you shall receive. I have never seen volks winning one on one engagement against rifleman if they both have same cover. Not even going to count 2 minute pineapples that you can throw. Link: https://www.coh2.org/topic/98344/rifles-overperforming/page/9


Vet 1 VG (10% RA reduction) will regularly beat Vet 1 riflemen from range 17 or so on and at Vet 0 should trade mostly evenly from range 20 on. (Higher alpha damage should also help in cover situations)
7 Mar 2020, 06:56 AM
#51
avatar of dreamerdude
Benefactor 392

Posts: 374

Disclaimer: but vs the T70 you pick mobile defense to survivey.



build AT guns. plant mines. if you're losing to the t-70 so much, you should practice fighting it. Even if you're just pushing it off the field effectively, taking it out of the fight, it's okay. It's only a puma, it's not going to help you defend your mid-game that effectively if you can't utilize the core faction.

I'm not trying to ream anyone out. it's just that you're basicly trying to use it as a crutch, when you shouldn't.
7 Mar 2020, 09:54 AM
#52
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



Go for luch/puma while picking feurestorm meaning you cant use flame munition, meaning there are still trade off.


You can’t use flame munitions early on anyway since you need to upgrade your Volks, use grenades/smoke, put down mines and then get Obers.
7 Mar 2020, 17:02 PM
#53
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 570 | Subs: 1

Puma is just about the only consistent answer to LVHs, tellers are a gamble and anyone competent will just get sweepers and baby the t70, which once it gets to vet 3 will start rolling through your force. The puma is just about the only true option when dealing with it.

It will become meta by virtue of being the only good and consistent answer to the t70 but if the heavies remain strong it's going to make it very hard and probably force a shift in playstyle towards an hyper aggressive LVH spam ostheer. Who will fall of in the late game hard.
7 Mar 2020, 19:50 PM
#54
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

Puma is not a hard counter to t70 imo. It is still very fragile especially to oorah plus snare, penals with at, guards with at. Add the fact that t70 penetrates it too. There are also at guns. I don't see a reason why puma should come later than t70. Especially because it doesn't give ostheer anything in terms of anty infantry.
7 Mar 2020, 19:55 PM
#55
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Puma is not a hard counter to t70 imo. It is still very fragile especially to oorah plus snare, penals with at, guards with at. Add the fact that t70 penetrates it too. There are also at guns. I don't see a reason why puma should come later than t70. Especially because it doesn't give ostheer anything in terms of anty infantry.


GCS2's Mobidef meta is why.
7 Mar 2020, 20:00 PM
#56
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2020, 19:55 PMLago


GCS2's Mobidef meta is why.

??
7 Mar 2020, 20:45 PM
#57
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Puma is not a hard counter to t70 imo.

And jackson is not a hardcounter to P4....
Anymore silly statements to drop?
7 Mar 2020, 21:03 PM
#58
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


And jackson is not a hardcounter to P4....
Anymore silly statements to drop?

You mentioned vacuum before. The amount of at on sov infantry makes a fragile puma have hard time, especially after at guns are out. You really have to be a good player to make it work. Please don't pick statements out of context.
7 Mar 2020, 21:06 PM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


You mentioned vacuum before. The amount of at on sov infantry makes a fragile puma have hard time, especially after at guns are out. You really have to be a good player to make it work. Please don't pick statements out of context.

You can use that argument about literally any kind of hardcounter and unit it hardcounters.

And it still doesn't change the fact that one unit counters another.
Puma is also anything but fragile.
1 in 25 small arms shots will pen it, other then that, you need same level of AT you'd need to kill T-70 if you want to get rid of it, except you can't use vehicles, because it counters them.
7 Mar 2020, 21:11 PM
#60
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


You can use that argument about literally any kind of hardcounter and unit it hardcounters.

And it still doesn't change the fact that one unit counters another.
Puma is also anything but fragile.
1 in 25 small arms shots will pen it, other then that, you need same level of AT you'd need to kill T-70 if you want to get rid of it, except you can't use vehicles, because it counters them.

But vacuum comparisons are simply wrong, which You mentioned in this thread yourself.

My argument is that ostheer's puma will be less supported by at infantry weapons than t70 plus it will not hurt sov infantry. There is no reason to make it 5 cps. 4 cps would be fine IMO, especially when it is a doctrine tied vehicle.
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