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Is the T70 OP?

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5 Mar 2020, 08:25 AM
#101
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 960

T70 was heavily reworked in 2016 and had a major recon nerf in either late 2018 or early 19’. 2016 gave it an extra 80 HP with substantial AoE nerfs.


Ah, missed those. For some reason the patch notes arbitrarily switch between "T70" and "T-70", making the search function useless.

The changes were:
Manpower cost increased from 200 to 260
Health increased from 320 to 400
Crew repair removed
Reload speed increased from 1.8 - 2.2 to 2.1 - 2.5
AoE damage reduced from 1/0.35/0.05 to 0.8/0.35/0.15
Scatter Max increased from 1.7 to 2.5
Distance scatter offset reduced from 0.25 to 0.15 (this improves targeting)
Veterancy 3 decreases weapon scatter by 20% (accuracy vs infantry)
Coaxial MG cooldown decreased from 5 to 3
Coaxial MG cooldown multiplier changed from 0.5/1/1.5 to 0.75/1/1.25
Coaxial MG accuracy changed from 0.38/0.33/0.28 to 0.38/0.355/0.33
Coaxial MG reload duration reduced from 4-6 seconds to 3 seconds
T-70 Recon Mode now also allows the T-70 to capture territory with veterancy 1.
Capture Point ability removed.


And then slightly later
Veterancy 2 recon mode bonus removed (68.5 sight from 95 when fully vetted)

5 Mar 2020, 08:31 AM
#102
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

See i told ya, t70 is lousy in 2v2 and above with those nerfs that ost players were calling for. It got nerf and that's that. Close this thread.
5 Mar 2020, 08:39 AM
#103
avatar of GGnore

Posts: 76


Why 70 fuel T3 tank should be forced by T2 30 fuel scout car? All grens would do here is to zone it away from 222, at least until T-70 murders them.


It keeps it lethality vs infantry this way which is its main selling point and gives ost a chance to fight back without conceding most of the map and does not buff the ost matchup vs us and brit LV's

vs the usual lelic heavy swings in buffs/nerfs of say just buffing the 222's pen and then they mess up the balance vs the aec and stuart for 6 months.
5 Mar 2020, 08:42 AM
#104
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



We keep hearing the same braindead analogy when the two things aren't even remotely comparable.

1. You can sweep for mines for your T70. You can't sweep for each of your 6+ capping squads unless you A-move 6 squads together all the time.

2. It's never 50 muni for a T70, unless opposing player was super bad or super greedy. Teller mines require a great deal of luck for the enemy to specifically run over that spot and require a great deal of guesswork. It's on average more than 200 muni of teller mines for one actual hit if you calculate it properly.

Also, experienced players will avoid/sweep/attack ground the most commonly traversed spots. Teller mines are also often detonated by stray shells.

3. Demos had monstrous AoE and got multiple models even if it wasn't a wipe. It created massive squad-loss swings very early in the game, effectively ending the game before we even got to the LV phase. And most importantly, capping and squad preservation are the core mechanics of the game (just not to GenMe), and not being able to do the most basic things in the first 10 minutes of the game are in no way comparable to possibly running over a mine much later in the game.


I've certainly lost T70s and IS2s (and hence the games) to teller mines. But my opponents invested several hundred munitions, AND I got sloppy. It's not even remotely comparable to the cancer of instant-win demos which had no possible counter.


You make it sound like every demo was a 100% wipe on a single squad or a blob.
Most games had 3 to 4 demo placed tops. Some where super charged. As you say tellers require some luck and anticipation but you dont need to manualy detonate or rig it to have it detonate. but demos require rigging or manual detenation or they are just idle. They where almost twice the price of a teller as well but that was mostly because sov floated muni back then.

Yes the demo was frustating to play against. So is the teller. getting one shot without warning or counterplay is bad including when ost does it. So defending the teller while supporting the demo nerf is very hypocritical imo.
5 Mar 2020, 19:20 PM
#105
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 960

See i told ya, t70 is lousy in 2v2 and above with those nerfs that ost players were calling for. It got nerf and that's that. Close this thread.


Units can be nerfed/redesigned/changed more than once.

I agree that the T70 isn't much of an issue in 3v3/4v4 due to the amount of AT in those modes, but its completely devastating in the right hands in 1v1 and 2v2 matches.
6 Mar 2020, 14:15 PM
#106
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

If it's weapon-profile would work more than 45-mm-Kanone M1937 it would be better. Less AI with a shift to light-medium AT.

Then we can finally reduce the hitbox of german light vehicles or the acc. of SU76 etc. so they get some more survivability. Because T70 gets a counter for that and not of small crews and squads.

Edit: T70 arrives at a moment when pressure on enemeys inf is high, it simply it too much at that moment. That is my opinion. Like if Luchs would arrives 3-5 min earlier.
6 Mar 2020, 14:51 PM
#107
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



Edit: T70 arrives at a moment when pressure on enemeys inf is high, it simply it too much at that moment. That is my opinion. Like if Luchs would arrives 3-5 min earlier.


How can it be high if OKW already have its Luch MG34 and Raketen out and Ostheer, hmg42, Pzgren, pak40 and 251FT?
6 Mar 2020, 15:26 PM
#108
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

Major Sov fanboy here: I think the T70 is fine, cus your kinda dependent on that thing to win it kinda makes or breaks sovite play (unless your some kind od god then you might not need it). also 444 is something that is more fragile but can dish out both more AI and AV damage and cheaper.
6 Mar 2020, 16:08 PM
#109
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

I would reduce the T70 armor so it becomes a bit more vulnerable to the 20mm and the Flak AA. This would make the T70 less of a counter to 222, Luchs, and flak HT. This would then force Soviets to go for an SU76 if they actually want to hard counter these units right away.
6 Mar 2020, 16:12 PM
#110
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

I would reduce the T70 armor so it becomes a bit more vulnerable to the 20mm and the Flak AA. This would make the T70 less of a counter to 222, Luchs, and flak HT. This would then force Soviets to go for an SU76 if they actually want to hard counter these units right away.


The problem is the T70 in reality had 10-60mm armour and with hard angling, meaning it was basically immune to the 20mm KwK on the Luchs and 222.
6 Mar 2020, 16:14 PM
#111
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I would reduce the T70 armor so it becomes a bit more vulnerable to the 20mm and the Flak AA. This would make the T70 less of a counter to 222, Luchs, and flak HT. This would then force Soviets to go for an SU76 if they actually want to hard counter these units right away.

If Luchs could contest it, then T70 shouldn't cost more then luchs nor arrive so much later.
6 Mar 2020, 16:29 PM
#112
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

I would reduce the T70 armor so it becomes a bit more vulnerable to the 20mm and the Flak AA. This would make the T70 less of a counter to 222, Luchs, and flak HT. This would then force Soviets to go for an SU76 if they actually want to hard counter these units right away.


For some strange reason Luch has a an accuracy modifier vs vehicles so it is not very good at it. It has lower accuracy and half the penetration of 222.

In general luch is not very good vs vehicles (even m3).

6 Mar 2020, 16:37 PM
#113
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

The problem of the T70 is that it's arrival time makes it mandatory to be clearly better than all the other LVs. It costs 190 fuel for OKW to get Luchs + Puma out while it costs Soviets 165 fuel to get a single T70 out. And that is without Molotovs or AT snares. So if you decide to give Conscripts basic tools you will end up paying almost as much for your first T70 as OKW does for Puma and Luchs together.

It's very strong at the moment but if it gets toned down it needs to be very nuanced because of how much fuel you need to get it.
6 Mar 2020, 16:39 PM
#114
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

The problem of the T70 is that it's arrival time makes it mandatory to be clearly better than all the other LVs. It costs 190 fuel for OKW to get Luchs + Puma out while it costs Soviets 165 fuel to get a single T70 out. And that is without Molotovs or AT snares. So if you decide to give Conscripts basic tools you will end up paying almost as much for your first T70 as OKW does for Puma and Luchs together.

It's very strong at the moment but if it gets toned down it needs to be very nuanced because of how much fuel you need to get it.

Simply lower the power level.

Less lethal at lower price.
6 Mar 2020, 16:48 PM
#115
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1


Yes the demo was frustating to play against. So is the teller. getting one shot without warning or counterplay is bad including when ost does it. So defending the teller while supporting the demo nerf is very hypocritical imo.


Demo charges were much more cancerous than Tellers. It was a good thing they got nerfed. As said previously, you can protect your vehicle with a sweeper nearby. You can't protect all your regular infantry with sweepers unless you want to go for engineer spam.

Teller mines are as strong as they are because Ostheer has no real LV and 4 man squads that are vulnerable to vehicles because of high reinforce cost and overall poor survivability.

IMO Teller mines are balanced. If OKW had them they would be OP I agree. But for Ost they are ok.
6 Mar 2020, 17:03 PM
#116
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2020, 16:39 PMVipper

Simply lower the power level.

Less lethal at lower price.


The problem is not the T70 cost, it's T3 fuel cost on top of basic upgrades such as AT nades + Molotovs.

Counter argument: move the cost to T4

Counter counter argument: say we "nerf" the T70 to P2 levels of performance and equal timing. NO ONE would want to face a soviet P2 at the same timing as OKW puts it on the field.
6 Mar 2020, 17:22 PM
#117
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2020, 14:51 PMEsxile


How can it be high if OKW already have its Luch MG34 and Raketen out and Ostheer, hmg42, Pzgren, pak40 and 251FT?


Useability. If Luchs had stats of T70 lol community would cry like babies because of OPnes.
6 Mar 2020, 17:31 PM
#118
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Useability. If Luchs had stats of T70 lol community would cry like babies because of OPnes.


Same could be said other way round.
6 Mar 2020, 17:39 PM
#119
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

The problem of the T70 is that it's arrival time makes it mandatory to be clearly better than all the other LVs.


The problem is that Conscripts do not have a weapon upgrade until T4 and the Maxim is a piece of shite, meaning you need the T70 to carry the mid game or you'll die to hordes of elite infantry (Pgrens/Obers) and upgraded mainlines (STG Volks/LMG Grens). You can't lower the T70 lethality. What you can do is either reduce its Anti-Tank, or reduce its mobility.
6 Mar 2020, 17:45 PM
#120
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

The problem of the T70 is that it's arrival time makes it mandatory to be clearly better than all the other LVs. It costs 190 fuel for OKW to get Luchs + Puma out while it costs Soviets 165 fuel to get a single T70 out. And that is without Molotovs or AT snares. So if you decide to give Conscripts basic tools you will end up paying almost as much for your first T70 as OKW does for Puma and Luchs together.

It's very strong at the moment but if it gets toned down it needs to be very nuanced because of how much fuel you need to get it.


Fair points. One solution could be:
Decrease cost and effectiveness of T70 and transfer some of the fuel cost of T3 to T4. This way the less strong T70 arrives at around the same timing as a luchs but it will not be able to bully the Luchs around. T34s are still at the same timing so Soviets are more likely to fill the gap with Su76, in the same way OKW fills the gap with the Puma.

Hopefully it will lead to more LV play and fewer T70-squadwipes / huge setbacks of hitting a single teller.
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