What is the REAL problem with Ost T4?

Weird brainstorming after couple of beers idea. Not necessarily all to be implemented.

After T4 is been built.

-Pios to 5 man. Reduce squad popcap by 1 to 0 to remain the same as now (it's 5 popcap, 1 per model + 1 on squad).
Non doctrinaly late game they would have a unit which can cap/scout without getting obliterated as well as more easily recrewing support weapons and repair vehicles.

-Reduce popcap on support units/Pio.
Same as before, but in this case Pios goes from 5 to 4 as they remain a 4 model.
MG42/Mortar goes from 6 to 5
Pak40 goes from 7 to 6
Sniper from 9 to 7

Unrelated to the late game on OH.

Bunkers
Cost of construction goes from 150 to 50mp.
MG/Medic upgrade now cost 100mp on top of their munition cost
Now we can MAYBE see people build bunkers as cover AND maybe we can adjust the cost of command post separately.

You should stop drinking for sure.

I've wanted something like this for Ost for a long time. Would be great to be able to build more bunkers for just cover purposes. Moving the costs around is great way to do that

I am not sure that would happen as long as "mainline infatry" can one shoot bunkers with satchels...

Ost T4 suffers from the classic quadruple nerfs + buff of its counterparts over the years.

While it was good years ago it got armour nerfs, vet nerfs while Allied TDs got pen or HP (Jackson) and the Allied heavies got buffs through the bank (mostly large hp pools). Not to mention buffs to all Allied infantry (rifles, conscripts, Brit buffs impending).

It was obvious Ost T4 could not keep up with this power creep.

That means Ost has to heavily rely on the units that perform (T3 and Tiger). Either T4 gets buffs or the T3 meta remains.

For ukf..yes

There is nothing wrong with ost t4 anyway. Play slower and vet up your units and they become tank wall,, especially cancerous in 4v4.

Let's play 3 jackson vs 3 panthers, you be usf. I be ost. Let see if you whine about Jackson anymore

For UKF my opinion is increase squad size upgrade same time reduce 1 squad pop,so it 5men IS and Engineer won't take more pop
For Ost,maybe only for grenadier and panzergrenadier

For UKF my opinion is increase squad size upgrade same time reduce 1 squad pop,so it 5men IS and Engineer won't take more pop
For Ost,maybe only for grenadier and panzergrenadier

Blobs 5-men shreck PzGrens? No.

Blobs 5-men shreck PzGrens? No.

No,I mean reduce 1 squad pop for Grenadier and PanzerGrenadier after build T4

Ost T4 suffers from the classic quadruple nerfs + buff of its counterparts over the years.

While it was good years ago it got armour nerfs, vet nerfs while Allied TDs got pen or HP (Jackson) and the Allied heavies got buffs through the bank (mostly large hp pools). Not to mention buffs to all Allied infantry (rifles, conscripts, Brit buffs impending).

It was obvious Ost T4 could not keep up with this power creep.

That means Ost has to heavily rely on the units that perform (T3 and Tiger). Either T4 gets buffs or the T3 meta remains.

Yet ost are good in top 1v1 tourney and very good in 2v2(watching tightrope casts) and super good in 4bv4(personal experience)

Balance team has done an insane good job tweaking ost against the odds.

Ost is best faction as in, all choices are laid out with super heavy tanks in late games. All's well ends well

Ost bunker need 1-2 pop cost. Cancer in 4v4

XD what about fighting emplacement . but hey a structure that dies to 3 pak shots must be very hard to deal with in a 4vs4 where arty and support weapons get spammed 24/7.

Seems more like a l2p issue for me

XD what about fighting emplacement . but hey a structure that dies to 3 pak shots must be very hard to deal with in a 4vs4 where arty and support weapons get spammed 24/7.

Seems more like a l2p issue for me

Pop cost that too.

Yet ost are good in top 1v1 tourney and very good in 2v2(watching tightrope casts) and super good in 4bv4(personal experience)

What are you smoking? The latest tournament shows Ost winrates barely above UKF.

Yet ost are good in top 1v1 tourney and very good in 2v2(watching tightrope casts) and super good in 4bv4(personal experience)

Balance team has done an insane good job tweaking ost against the odds.

Ost is best faction as in, all choices are laid out with super heavy tanks in late games. All's well ends well

OST is the 2nd worst faction in tournament level 1v1, ahead of only UKF (partly because no one played them).

You should stop drinking for sure.

Explain. Outside of the 5man pios, I'm talking about reducing the popcap on OH late game on combined arms.

2 Pios, 2 MG42, Mortar, 2 Pak would be 7 less pop. Add a sniper it's 9. Maybe the sniper doesn't require a pop reducement but i don't see late game snipers as annoying when there's plenty to micro around and more options to kill them.

The bunker concept is too crazy? Outside of discussing if ALL bunkers and defensive emplacements should have a popcap attached to them, i have never seen people use reinforce bunkers, empty bunkers or it's EXTREMELY rare having forward medic bunkers at all.

Explain. Outside of the 5man pios, I'm talking about reducing the popcap on OH late game on combined arms.

2 Pios, 2 MG42, Mortar, 2 Pak would be 7 less pop. Add a sniper it's 9. Maybe the sniper doesn't require a pop reducement but i don't see late game snipers as annoying when there's plenty to micro around and more options to kill them.

The bunker concept is too crazy? Outside of discussing if ALL bunkers and defensive emplacements should have a popcap attached to them, i have never seen people use reinforce bunkers, empty bunkers or it's EXTREMELY rare having forward medic bunkers at all.

The problem is not the units taking popcap, more about how long they will be out in the field before retreating due to the 4man squads. Ost also has the best halftrack to reinforce out in the field in the game, aswell as being able to place reinforcement bunkers. Hard thing to solve because if pgrens get 5 models they absolutely can't keep their current performance. Not sure what to do about grens though, they are alright considering they are so cheap, but making mainline long range infantry too durable might create problems for usf and soviets.

The problem is the sheer performance of Ostheer T4.

You pay 185 fuel for a Panther only to have that thing being utterly outgunned latgeame.

You pay 140 fuel for a Brumm only to have that thing being utterly outgunned lategame. Because of "balance" reasons the devs decided it shouldnt be able to fire at AT guns at decent range.

You pay 80 fuel for a Werfer only to have that thing later and perform worse than a Kat lategame.

This is sheer unwillingness to have German tanks perform. God forbid Germans have quality on their side.

Result is the shitfests we have now with Allies sniping everything at range covered with high HP heavies and ultra inf.

Explain. Outside of the 5man pios, I'm talking about reducing the popcap on OH late game on combined arms.

2 Pios, 2 MG42, Mortar, 2 Pak would be 7 less pop. Add a sniper it's 9. Maybe the sniper doesn't require a pop reducement but i don't see late game snipers as annoying when there's plenty to micro around and more options to kill them.

The bunker concept is too crazy? Outside of discussing if ALL bunkers and defensive emplacements should have a popcap attached to them, i have never seen people use reinforce bunkers, empty bunkers or it's EXTREMELY rare having forward medic bunkers at all.

So at the same time you access the best AI and AT weapon and be allowed to field one or two more units than your opponent? Or having an increased income if you don't. Don't you see how OP it would be associated with Tigers or Elephants?

Ostheer T4 is fine, it has never been meant to be built every game. It's a bonus Tier where you can pick units that should normally be available through doctrines with the exception of Pzwerfer.
People want the old good Panther and Brumbar back from when they were completely unbalanced. If you look at USF/Sov stock roaster, they don't have a unit that can't be countered by Ostheer T3. Only brit and their Comet may require you to build a panther but even the churchill is perfectly countered by a pair of Stug.
I understand that people want to play with Panthers and Brumbar more often but having them more accessible or stronger would just mess with the balance.

So at the same time you access the best AI and AT weapon and be allowed to field one or two more units than your opponent? Or having an increased income if you don't. Don't you see how OP it would be associated with Tigers or Elephants?

Ostheer T4 is fine, it has never been meant to be built every game. It's a bonus Tier where you can pick units that should normally be available through doctrines with the exception of Pzwerfer.
People want the old good Panther and Brumbar back from when they were completely unbalanced. If you look at USF/Sov stock roaster, they don't have a unit that can't be countered by Ostheer T3. Only brit and their Comet may require you to build a panther but even the churchill is perfectly countered by a pair of Stug.
I understand that people want to play with Panthers and Brumbar more often but having them more accessible or stronger would just mess with the balance.

On 1v1 or 2v2 nope.

Tigers are getting nerfed and the main reason you see Tigers for OH, it's because it's the most reliable way to deal with IS2/Pershing outside of been a good unit itself. Elefants are still strong on teamgames, but they have been nerf to acceptable levels (no longer 2 shotting vehicles). If they removed Stuka Dive bomb from that commander (and IL2 bombing strike on the ISU commander) no one would have a right to complain IMO about them anymore.

The whole reason i went for "combined arms" popcap buff it's because it doesn't mess with performance on the units (neither touching T4 units) nor it incentivize infantry centric strats (PG/Gren). USF hasn't break the game on teamgames with abusing popcap for years despite the usual complains about it from time to time.

You bring issues about the PV and Brummbar when both units are not been touched at all by the suggestion. I'm in favour of the slow approach been done by the MOD team atm in regards to the Brummbar. The PV/Stug should get some vet reshuffled. And probably gaining accuracy on vet as ALL other TD get.

PD: T4 is no longer a bonus tier, the moment the Stug was tailored to be a medium tank killer and nerfed. The same way Su76 spam was nerfed when they put a munition cost to barrage and nerfed the penetration.
If you want for T4 to be an "optional" tier in a similar way as UKF, then redesign the Stug G to be equally to all other 60 range TDs (note: i don't want this).
Stug as a heavy counter, only works against Churchills.

Ost bunker need 1-2 pop cost. Cancer in 4v4

Rarely people use bunkers in 1v1 no need to nerf it more. In team games, just get AT guns or indirect.

Rarely people use bunkers in 1v1 no need to nerf it more. In team games, just get AT guns or indirect.

If people rarely use them in 1s anyways it would be worth it to reduce the cheese in team games its a change that would barely effect 1s.

Soviets don't even have a T4. Neither does USF. Really the only T4s are with OST, OKW, and maybe Brits.

Soviets don't even have a T4. Neither does USF. Really the only T4s are with OST, OKW, and maybe Brits.

Relevance?