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russian armor

How to reducing USF's reliance on Jackson

28 Feb 2020, 12:05 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



If you give it more penetration and lower rate of fire it improves against heavies and becomes worse vs mediums, which dramaticlaly improves the situation since it’s less oppressive vs medium tank play and improves usf in teamgames vs Elephant/Jagdtiger.

And again what do think is penetration values of M36? PLS check and come back.
Have you tried 2 M36 with HVAP vs an Elephant or JT?
28 Feb 2020, 12:10 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 12:05 PMVipper

And again what do think is penetration values of M36?
Have you tried 2 M36 with HVAP vs an Elephant or JT?


Do you have a problem with higher resource investment beating lower resource investment of same role?
28 Feb 2020, 12:14 PM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:43 AMEsxile

Well you know Pz4s are already obliterating infantry AND dealing USF sherman at the same time.

What I propose is one OR the other with an upgrade. Now if it requires a fuel price increase or the upgrade being a spit fuel/munition, so be it. I haven't even say the sherman should be better than the Pz4, just at the same level when it get skirts so it can fight the OKW version reliably.

PzIV does not go anywhere near Sherman HE and it is more expensive.
Why would a cheaper main battle tank be able to beat a more expensive main battle tank?
Just because one has invested munition in it as you originally suggested?

What price in your opinion should the M4A3 upgrade be to be able to beat the OKW PzIV?

Now let me explain the equivalent of what you are suggesting, lets make the PzIV an upgrade to Ostwind so the Axis player can decimate infatry and if the need to counter tank they can upgrade and get a medium tank. Is that in your opinion a healthy approach?

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:43 AMEsxile

I don't see the Ez8 proposal being a straight buff, you get a one unit limited that can't be mixed with other pershing or Calliope and it would have similar characteristic with the panther.

Then in exchange, the M36 is nerfed so it is only relevant vs panthers and heaviest units.

Tell you what. Lets stop here so you can take some time and think what exactly you want propose and pls come back with a clear proposal with some rough estimation of number if possible.
28 Feb 2020, 12:17 PM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:44 AMKatitof

Doing brain stuff seems to be harder and harder for you with every consecutive day, so let me help you:
If it hits, it should pen, not relay on yet another roll if it was to shoot very slowly.

Replay if you still don't get it, I'll get some crayons and scanner and we'll try again.

Either you do not not the difference between miss and bounce or you can not accept that what you wrote is wrong. Nothing more to add.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:44 AMKatitof

Then don't.
After all, I haven't written a book on how silly your suggestions are, despite multiple people telling you this on a daily basis, balance modders included, yet you still keep regurgitating them out.

I am not replaying to personal attack since it only seems to increase your obsession insulting me.
28 Feb 2020, 12:26 PM
#29
avatar of Svalbard SD

Posts: 327

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 08:24 AMblancat
If Jackson is nerfed, the USF faction itself can fall
So we need to give the USF new options and nerf Jackson

This presumes the Jackson needs to be nerfed. Unless this can be demonstrated and proven, the entire wall of text that followed this in the OP is irrelevant.
28 Feb 2020, 12:33 PM
#30
avatar of Musti

Posts: 203

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 12:14 PMVipper

Why would a cheaper main battle tank be able to beat a more expensive main battle tank?

Why should cheaper main battle tank be able to beat a more expensive AT only platform?
Because thats what all your whining about Jackson suggests.

Not sure what's the point of this thread is, Jackson isn't going anywhere, it's the only decent source of non-doc mobile AT USF has, not even super-powered AT gun and M4A3 buffs will change that.
Jackson isn't and won't be an "option", unless we do some drasting changes (or nerf it into non-existence)
28 Feb 2020, 12:46 PM
#31
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

AT-options for Soviets:

PTRS, mines, Zis3, SU-76, SU 85

AT-options for USF:

Bazooka, M20 mine, RE stun mine, Stuart, Jackson, M1 ATG

AT-options for UKF:

Piat, mine, AEC, Firefly, 6-pounder, 17-pounder

AT-options for Ost:

Panzerschreck, Teller, Stug, Panther, Pak 40

AT-options for OKW:

Puma, JP4, Panther, mines, Raketenwerfer

Where does this idea come from that USF has no at-options outside of the M36 when they have virtually the same AT-capabilities as all other factions?
28 Feb 2020, 12:52 PM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


Where does this idea come from that USF has no at-options outside of the M36 when they have virtually the same AT-capabilities as all other factions?

From the potency of these alternatives.

Can you kill P4 with Stuart?
Becayuse you can kill all medium tanks in game with Puma.

Have you ever used USF RET mines? They do not exactly OHK all lights.
M20 mines? Require fuel, on easy to lose unit, tech dependent.
ATG is best with ability used, worst without it, all you have to do to hardcounter it is to move away for 30 seconds then move back in and watch it bounce off of your vet2 P4 or tiger.

Bazookas are good only on elite troops or massed RETs, while 1 PG squad, if not focused will do the AT work.
28 Feb 2020, 12:54 PM
#33
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 08:37 AMblancat



If no other option is more attractive than using Jackson, USF users will continue to use Jackson only


How about removing Panthers and Axis Heavies?
Then we can remove all Tank Destroyers and AT guns from the game.

M36 Jackson gone. No problem!

As long as Panthers and Axis supers heavies, M36 Jackson and TDs will persist.

Let me ask it different : Should Panthers do 50% less dmg to Shermans because
they're supposed to be used against Allied heavies? :) Thank you.
28 Feb 2020, 12:54 PM
#34
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 12:14 PMVipper

Tell you what. Lets stop here so you can take some time and think what exactly you want propose and pls come back with a clear proposal with some rough estimation of number if possible.


I'll just ignore like I usually do. :wave:
28 Feb 2020, 12:55 PM
#35
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5


Also, I'd rather M36 Jackson went back to it's 480 health 12 pop 125 fuel
beginnings where it did 200-240 dmg. Axis have done nothing but complain
ever since it's health went up to 600 and it's dps been lowered, and
Panther health been increased.

28 Feb 2020, 13:16 PM
#38
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 12:52 PMKatitof

From the potency of these alternatives.

Can you kill P4 with Stuart?
Becayuse you can kill all medium tanks in game with Puma.

Have you ever used USF RET mines? They do not exactly OHK all lights.
M20 mines? Require fuel, on easy to lose unit, tech dependent.
ATG is best with ability used, worst without it, all you have to do to hardcounter it is to move away for 30 seconds then move back in and watch it bounce off of your vet2 P4 or tiger.

Bazookas are good only on elite troops or massed RETs, while 1 PG squad, if not focused will do the AT work.


And ??? u combine these like in combined arms and u can fight of relieble all Axis amor.
It requires some skill and thats the point about it. ... u dont want use combined arms... u want a unit that does all that for u while sitting back at 60 Range.

It seems that u dont understand Faction design at all...
When USF should be using combined arms against Axsis armor .. none of the other options even exist for u

but

When Axis Inf gets buttfucked by allied Inf ... "Muh use MG`s mines .... flanks grenades combined arms".

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

28 Feb 2020, 13:24 PM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



And ??? u combine these like in combined arms and u can fight of relieble all Axis amor.

Or, now listen to this and focus:
You could have reliable AT for each tier, like every other faction has, so you don't need to rely on a single unit so much.

It requires some skill and thats the point about it. ... u dont want use combined arms... u want a unit that does all that for u while sitting back at 60 Range.

There is no amount of skill that will make a bad unit good against equal opponent.
Also, why aren't you using ATGs and shrecks vs jacksons?
It requires some skill and that's the point. YOU don't want to use combined arms... you want a unit that does all that for you while it tanks all as well.


It seems that u dont understand Faction design at all...
When USF should be using combined arms against Axsis armor .. none of the other options even exist for u

-ALL- factions are designed to be solid when using combined arms.
That's not faction design, that's game design.
But one of them got most of its options importent to the point where they need to crutch on one unit more.


When Axis Inf gets buttfucked by allied Inf ... "Muh use MG`s mines .... flanks grenades combined arms"

You're trying to say something here or just threw a bunch of random words?
You are aware of what hardcounters are and how they are supposed to work?


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

28 Feb 2020, 13:40 PM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 12:33 PMMusti

Why should cheaper main battle tank be able to beat a more expensive AT only platform?
Because thats what all your whining about Jackson suggests.


Not sure what's the point of this thread is, Jackson isn't going anywhere, it's the only decent source of non-doc mobile AT USF has, not even super-powered AT gun and M4A3 buffs will change that.
Jackson isn't and won't be an "option", unless we do some drasting changes (or nerf it into non-existence)

News flash:
I did not start this thread, and I am not whining.

I have not suggested that the PzIV should be able to beat an M36. On the other hand the PzIV can already beat a Su-85 and the right conditions and that does not create any problems.
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