Elite Panzerschreck

What people here constantly keep missing is that this wholebidea does not affect regular Schrecks like the ones Panzergrenadiere have AT ALL.

It is simply an idea to slightly buff single Schreck squads in the hope of getting them a little bit of play again. Nobody uses them in the current meta.

Also to the argument it will negatively affect team ges: Sturmtruppen come at a time where your infantry build is usually finished. Sturmpios are expensive early on, don't scale too well for AI and bleed a lot. You should actually be happy if your opponent goes for three Schreck Sturmpios

What people here constantly keep missing is that this wholebidea does not affect regular Schrecks like the ones Panzergrenadiere have AT ALL.

It is simply an idea to slightly buff single Schreck squads in the hope of getting them a little bit of play again. Nobody uses them in the current meta.

Also to the argument it will negatively affect team ges: Sturmtruppen come at a time where your infantry build is usually finished. Sturmpios are expensive early on, don't scale too well for AI and bleed a lot. You should actually be happy if your opponent goes for three Schreck Sturmpios

Idk man. I'm getting the vibe that people think 1 sturm shreck is somehow good, even though you don't get a sweeper, hampers your AI power on an expensive squad, and it's almost never seen at high level play. Idk.

Idk man. I'm getting the vibe that people think 1 sturm shreck is somehow good, even though you don't get a sweeper, hampers your AI power on an expensive squad, and it's almost never seen at high level play. Idk.

I mean I wasn't trying to say it was good. I just thought comparing them to ptrs squads didn't make much sense

I never get the shreck, almost always go with the sweeper. IMO they should give the shreck the same treatment, allow the launcher to be "stowed". I guess that would be silly irl but for the gameplays sake who cares

I mean I wasn't trying to say it was good. I just thought comparing them to ptrs squads didn't make much sense

I never get the shreck, almost always go with the sweeper. IMO they should give the shreck the same treatment, allow the launcher to be "stowed". I guess that would be silly irl but for the gameplays sake who cares

the problem with this mechanic is that a schreck (not like a minesweeper) can drop, so i dont know what kind of iffy gameplay bugs this might achieve

the problem with this mechanic is that a schreck (not like a minesweeper) can drop, so i dont know what kind of iffy gameplay bugs this might achieve

Ooo excellent point. I did not think that through enough

Elite Bazookas are Bazookas buffed up to Panzerschreck level. An Elite Panzershreck would be an Elite Elite Bazooka.

All the Sturmpioneer shreck really needs is to not lock out the minesweeper. That's the real problem with it.

I mean I wasn't trying to say it was good. I just thought comparing them to ptrs squads didn't make much sense

I never get the shreck, almost always go with the sweeper. IMO they should give the shreck the same treatment, allow the launcher to be "stowed". I guess that would be silly irl but for the gameplays sake who cares

I wasn't saying you personally, but no one actually gets this upgrade. It takes away an MP40 on storms which lowers their DPS on ambush and has priority over the MP40s when models die. Sturm DPS drops off anyways by the 7-8 minute mark but 1 shreck doesn't have the DPS to be a threat to lights because of the lack of 160 damage or RoF. I just don't really understand the resistance to making the single panzerschreck good. It's bad, therefore why not buff it?

The USF and UKF have a weapon rack system, but there was no merit to hold AT weapons to elite infantry.

Does the axis have a weapon rack system? no
Can a German elite infantry pick up Panzer Shrek from the weapon rack? no

Is Panzer Shrek weak? no

Please stop the simple comparison, you idiot

Oh lord, what the fuck does a weapon rack has to do with an actual model using a handheld AT or gun? Or are axis prohibited to use any kind of handheld weapon upgrade? Did you even read what I wrote? Insult all you want you but your point is as light as hot air. What's next? USF and UKF deserve elite weapons because they pay a side tech for it? LOL

the problem with this mechanic is that a schreck (not like a minesweeper) can drop, so i dont know what kind of iffy gameplay bugs this might achieve

Zooks drop too, the elite status of the weapon is given when picked up. It's not an elite weapon itself.

I really like the idea of giving a single shrek some accuracy buff

I wasn't saying you personally,

Didn't feel singled out at all, I had just spoken somewhat positively of shreck sturms while quoting you so was making sure I was clear

but no one actually gets this upgrade. It takes away an MP40 on storms which lowers their DPS on ambush and has priority over the MP40s when models die. Sturm DPS drops off anyways by the 7-8 minute mark but 1 shreck doesn't have the DPS to be a threat to lights because of the lack of 160 damage or RoF. I just don't really understand the resistance to making the single panzerschreck good. It's bad, therefore why not buff it?

Yeah as long as it doesnt apply to Pgrens and Fussies I am all in. Makes plenty of sense to me

Oh lord, what the fuck does a weapon rack has to do with an actual model using a handheld AT or gun? Or are axis prohibited to use any kind of handheld weapon upgrade? Did you even read what I wrote? Insult all you want you but your point is as light as hot air. What's next? USF and UKF deserve elite weapons because they pay a side tech for it? LOL

His point would seem to be the fact that there would be no reason to equip 'elite' AI squads with bazookas normally, since you can put them on other units and the bazooka itself is not particularly amazing past the light vehicle stage. Thus you have the elite bazooka, originally created for the paratrooper squads and eventually added to rangers. It is a mechanism to encourage the tradeoff of AI DPS on an expensive squad for better handheld AT.

On the other hand, all but one of the axis units which can be normally equipped with Panzershreks are already high-DPS anti-infantry squads. Panzergrenadiers, Stormtroopers, and Sturmpioniers. The exception is the Panzerfusilier squad, where this works in an opposite way, as the upgrade locks out the G43 upgrade.

This is all so much as to say that Panzershreks already function as an elite bazooka would. I personally rather despise the entire elite bazooka elite bren elite whatever concept, with the sole exception being on the extremely specific recon support AT paratrooper squad upgrade, and so I also despise this idea.

This is basically a 'buff Panzershrek' thread since every unit besides Pfussies capable of fielding Shreks is already an elite unit, and the Panzershrek is not a weapon since needs a buff in any kind of way. I would rather remove the elite bazooka from the game and thus end this stupid trend before seeing a buffed Shrek.

I wasn't saying you personally, but no one actually gets this upgrade. It takes away an MP40 on storms which lowers their DPS on ambush and has priority over the MP40s when models die. Sturm DPS drops off anyways by the 7-8 minute mark but 1 shreck doesn't have the DPS to be a threat to lights because of the lack of 160 damage or RoF. I just don't really understand the resistance to making the single panzerschreck good. It's bad, therefore why not buff it?

I don't know about you, but I've played against this upgrade before (on stormtroopers) and it does it's job well enough to me. 120 damage and guaranteed penetration is nothing to sneeze at and never has been unless you want to lose a vehicle.

There's no reason to buff it since it doesn't need a buff.

If you don't think it's a worthy investment, don't buy it.

(...) the squads that get single Schrecks are (maybe I have forgotten one) OKWs Sturmpioniere, OSTs Sturmtruppen and SOVs AT Partisans. (...)

They don't function well with a single Schreck. On the other hand, giving them two might cause other problems.(...)

What people here constantly keep missing is that this wholebidea does not affect regular Schrecks like the ones Panzergrenadiere have AT ALL.

It is simply an idea to slightly buff single Schreck squads in the hope of getting them a little bit of play again. Nobody uses them in the current meta.(...)

(...)
This is basically a 'buff Panzershrek' thread since every unit besides Pfussies capable of fielding Shreks is already an elite unit (...)

This unfortunately sums up page two of this thread.

Panzershrek dont need to be "elite"

enough strong

That is probably also the reason why we see so many single Schreck squads. Because players know that they are way too OP and don't use it because of fair play.

Elite Bazookas are Bazookas buffed up to Panzerschreck level. An Elite Panzershreck would be an Elite Elite Bazooka.

All the Sturmpioneer shreck really needs is to not lock out the minesweeper. That's the real problem with it.

First part is factually wrong. Even the elite bazooka has worse stats than the Panzerschreck apart from reload time. But even if it were true: what's the point? Obersoldaten LMG is functionally elite version of Gren's LMG which is functionally an elite version of Guard's LMG. So Obersoldaten LMG is elite elite DP28. Pls delete Ober LMG. Sorry, but I cannot see the logic here.

I can see the point in the second suggestion. Still I'd like if the OKW has to make a choice here. Sturmpioniere don't scale well into the late game regarding their AI capabilities, so they would now have two no-brainer upgrades instead of one. It could fix the problem, but if we have a solution that would lead to overall better game design (like I think mine would), I'd prefer it.

So Obersoldaten LMG is elite elite DP28. Pls delete Ober LMG.

Yeah,but problem is that dp-28 gave almost the same dps as obers mg
following your logic let's delete sniper since they are elite AI,maybe jaegers too,rangers,shooktroops....

Guys are butthurt by shrecks so much that they can't use any logic to say no.

A single shrek is not only rarely seen (unless you stormtrooper behind enemy lines to kill a katyusha, do you realize how niche is this?) And not a single at bearing squad has a snare on to combine for a definitive kill.

But every allied squad that can simply doesn't count because their at is sub par against the above average armor axis has.

Double standard much? I think so.

A shrek is strong, we know but they all lack a good measure of utility and adaptability. Even PTRSD can shoot units in cover with some efficiency. I have never seen a model blown to bits by a shrek rocket, those days are gone now.

Now for once read the OP with an open mind, don't be that guy that thinks with its ass and only his beloved faction

Guys are butthurt by shrecks so much that they can't use any logic to say no.

A single shrek is not only rarely seen (unless you stormtrooper behind enemy lines to kill a katyusha, do you realize how niche is this?) And not a single at bearing squad has a snare on to combine for a definitive kill.

But every allied squad that can simply doesn't count because their at is sub par against the above average armor axis has.

Double standard much? I think so.

A shrek is strong, we know but they all lack a good measure of utility and adaptability. Even PTRSD can shoot units in cover with some efficiency. I have never seen a model blown to bits by a shrek rocket, those days are gone now.

Now for once read the OP with an open mind, don't be that guy that thinks with its ass and only his beloved faction

First of all I am really wondering if I am the only person who has ever played against Panzershrek Stormtroopers. I for one find them annoying enough already, even if they're off-meta. Sturmpio shreks are rarer, sure, but I'd be willing to bet they still show up. Also, Tank hunter partisans were included in this list, and do possess a snare. I'm against giving them an 'elite shrek' too.

Both the Bazooka and the Panzershrek can and do hit infantry units; they are however prevented by dealing anywhere near lethal damage because most infantry AT damage is now done via a requirement action in a penetration effect. I forget the numbers but I think the PTRS does like 20 damage if it connects, the bazooka and panzershrek doing something like 40. Only the guards PTRS iirc has a reasonable chance of actually hitting models, however, the rest being comparable to the shrek and bazooka.

I do not see any reason why single shreks should be better than they already are even(especially?) on these squads. Most of these units end up ironically granting the shrek in their possession better stats anyway through veterancy. Partisan tank hunters get extra 10% penetration, -20% reload, as well as 30% and 10% accuracy bonuses. Stormtroopers and Sturmpioniers get 40% accuracy compared to 16.7% and 20% on the Panzergrenadiers. Just for comparison, Rangers and Paratroopers only get +25% accuracy for their bazookas.

This isn't a change that is needed and this isn't an option that should be anywhere near meta in the first place imo. If I were to personally reluctantly approve of any change it'd maybe be an accuracy buff on solo shreks since, as has been said before, they fire slowly and they've only got one, but Shreks are already more likely to hit than not at most ranges anyway.

I don't much like 'elite' slot items differing wildly from their base counterparts (that very much includes elite bazookas) and so it stands I don't much like this idea. I've stated likewise on the PIAT thread as well, before anyone gets any ideas, though I do think something should be done about the out-of-cover reload debuff for them since putting PIATs on Tommies basically makes the PIAT as bad as it could possibly get.

Stormtroopers and Sturmpioniers get 40% accuracy compared to 16.7% and 20% on the Panzergrenadiers.

Not to be an a hole but: 1.167*1.2 = 1.4 or +16.7% and +20% is equal to +40%.
So your point is kinda falls apart here.

First of all I am really wondering if I am the only person who has ever played against Panzershrek Stormtroopers. I for one find them annoying enough already, even if they're off-meta. Sturmpio shreks are rarer, sure, but I'd be willing to bet they still show up. Also, Tank hunter partisans were included in this list, and do possess a snare. I'm against giving them an 'elite shrek' too.

Apparently yes. The majority of people here agreed that they rarely see single Schrevk squads and that it's not worth getting them. Yesterday I saw one guy getting a sungle Schreck Sturmpio in a Twitch game in 4v4. But judging from the snares that the Axis players could have done but did not, I assume that it wasn't a high level game. On the other hand the OST player in the same game blobbed 3 Panzergren Schrevk squads.

Both the Bazooka and the Panzershrek can and do hit infantry units; they are however prevented by dealing anywhere near lethal damage because most infantry AT damage is now done via a requirement action in a penetration effect. I forget the numbers but I think the PTRS does like 20 damage if it connects, the bazooka and panzershrek doing something like 40. Only the guards PTRS iirc has a reasonable chance of actually hitting models, however, the rest being comparable to the shrek and bazooka.

I'm not sure about the exact accuracy values, but given that handheld AT regularly misses tanks I assume that the base accuracy ranges between 3-5%. Which would be then the natural hit chance for infantry models.

I do not see any reason why single shreks should be better than they already are even(especially?) on these squads. Most of these units end up ironically granting the shrek in their possession better stats anyway through veterancy. Partisan tank hunters get extra 10% penetration, -20% reload, as well as 30% and 10% accuracy bonuses. Stormtroopers and Sturmpioniers get 40% accuracy compared to 16.7% and 20% on the Panzergrenadiers. Just for comparison, Rangers and Paratroopers only get +25% accuracy for their bazookas.

This isn't a change that is needed and this isn't an option that should be anywhere near meta in the first place imo. If I were to personally reluctantly approve of any change it'd maybe be an accuracy buff on solo shreks since, as has been said before, they fire slowly and they've only got one, but Shreks are already more likely to hit than not at most ranges anyway.

I don't much like 'elite' slot items differing wildly from their base counterparts (that very much includes elite bazookas) and so it stands I don't much like this idea. I've stated likewise on the PIAT thread as well, before anyone gets any ideas, though I do think something should be done about the out-of-cover reload debuff for them since putting PIATs on Tommies basically makes the PIAT as bad as it could possibly get.

You completely neglect the context of the weapon. The Schreck by stats is not bad, but a single Schreck is a waste of mun because it does not to enough 'threshhold damage' as I explained in the opening post.
Next point: I basically threw Partisans in thrre for the sake of completeness, but if they see some play afterwards that would be great. Obviously this decision should be made on a squad to squad basis, but the fact that all of them are completely underused while actually not being extremely micro intensive suggests that they are not in a good state.
Also I'm not sure where your accuracy stats are going. Panzergrenadiere get the dame accuracy buff as the other squads (basically ensuring high alpha damage) and they are not OP. I would leave bazookas out of the equation since the squads they are on and the tanks they fight differ wildly from what Schrecks face. This would just open a completely new field of discussion, and this is not what this topic is about.

This unfortunately sums up page two of this thread.

SPshreck are situational, they weren't even wanted by Relic when they redo OKW. If I recall correctly they where given because the community asked for it. They aren't there to deal damage but to stop LV push if you can't afford a proper vehicle to do it.

I don't understand why you want to make them deal more damage since they already fulfill their intended "STOP AT GAP" role. Or you want to change their role but I don't see any reason why, if you want a more offensive AT solution, the Puma is there for you.

I mean, their role when you equip them with shreck is the same as Penal with PTRS. Should we increase PTRS penal because they have little use atm? Of course not. You get them if you fail early on and can't get a vehicle soon enough and really need something to keep your opponent own vehicle at distance. Nothing less and nothing more.

BTW, I can already foreseen the problem you'll create with the combo Luch + elite pshreck and potential faust or raketen close by.

Elite Zooks require Elite troops to handle them, someone said that we could give them to officers and for the same reason as above I'm not approving it. I don't want to see stock elite zook + any USF light vehicle every games. At the moment if there are any on the field it is because certain doctrines have been selected and that what make them balanced.

BTW, I can already foreseen the problem you'll create with the combo Luch + elite pshreck and potential faust or raketen close by.

Lock the upgrade behind the schwereP HQ?