Are they not fixing heavies?
Posts: 773
Its in every game I have played against the axis since they added it to OKW, theres a reason everyone is using it now...
Posts: 3260
Its in every game I have played against the axis since they added it to OKW, theres a reason everyone is using it now...
All the heavies are wildly overpowered right now. They've been balanced against mediums the way mediums are balanced against lights, just without the 120ish FU teching barrier.
Every game is heavies because the most cost-efficient counter to a heavy is another heavy.
Posts: 773
All the heavies are wildly overpowered right now. They've been balanced against mediums the way mediums are balanced against lights, just without the 120ish FU teching barrier.
Every game is heavies because the most cost-efficient counter to a heavy is another heavy.
UKF hangs head in shame. The croc is good, was OP as fook but now isnt used because of how fast it seems to die, same goes for the AVRE. I dont use any of the Soviet heavies so I dont know how they pan out and I see the Pershing is quite similar to how the Tiger 1 is currently.
It really ruins games when almost every shot kills 2+ models even when on retreat, you cant even make a mistake and get out alive, you have to have almost the perfect engagements every time and retreat very fast.
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I said this a million times. Unless they nerf the AOE of heavy tanks they will continue to be used in every game. This is especially true for the Tiger. That thing is just absurd at the moment. Considering the IS2 got a well-deserved armour nerf I can't understand why the Tiger, which is arguably even better in the current patch, doesn't get some sort of nerf. It just kills infantry too fast. They can make heavy tanks come at 15 CP and they still would be used almost every game. It's just super boring and repetitive.
At best for heavy tanks is reducing the center damage AOE so it perhaps takes another shot to kill a squad and improve the consistency of damage being distributed with less spikes should the squad be close to each other.
We did some tests and against a squad that even has some spacing, Tigers need generally 5-7 shots to wipe out a 6 man squad, which changes on spacing. An AOE change would be so damage taken past 1 meter is reduced with a tad reduction in further edges of the AOE. The AOE would also have a much harsher drop off from 0-1m.
The Tiger's main gun might also be bugged in live as it has a greater OHK radius than it should have. If the editor is correct, its AOE distance is 1/1.5/3 rather than 0.25/1.5/3 which might explains its more chances of killing people.
At the end of the day, though, heavy tanks need to still be effective versus infantry and do it better than their medium tank counter parts. We're still searching for how to properly delay them in smaller game modes.
Posts: 1563
Yeah, unfortunately the heavies poll wants them to stay how they are in the Winter Balance 1.1 Preview and in my opinion they are still going to be too strong against all targets, especially infantry since they have very little scatter and come out 4-5 minutes before they actually should. Wish full tech requirements would have stayed since it would have delayed heavies across the board for all game modes but instead the CP increase is going to do very little in 1's and 2's and really effect heavy timings in 3's and 4's negatively. Somehow though nearly half of the votes in the poll think that heavy performance and cost is completely fine right now and CP's which don't rely on map control and vary in timing more than resources is the better means of balancing them.
You see the problem with full tech requirement would be that IS2 would only be delayed by 10 fuel and the rest would be delayed by 60-70 fuel. Which is not consistent + IS2 is the most power full of all the heavies right now so...... Yeah would not be fair to anyone.
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We did some tests and against a squad that even has some spacing, Tigers need generally 5-7 shots to wipe out a 6 man squad, which changes on spacing. An AOE change would be so damage taken past 1 meter is reduced with a tad reduction in further edges of the AOE. The AOE would also have a much harsher drop off from 0-1m.
These are the same vacuum tests that got us the OP state of heavy tanks.
The problem is not wiping full health infantry units but the consistently high damage output. Tigers rack up too many kills in too short of a time period. They also do too many wipes against retreating units, right now they basically always get the wipe on a squad that retreats slightly too late because they just don't miss all that often. They also get a lot of wipes against units with low-medium health. Keep in mind that in late-game most units that face the Tiger are not full health 6 man squads. There is so much artillery, small arms fire and vehicles around. Then there is also the problem of the OKW Tiger's barrage ability that makes it almost impossible to effectively use AT-guns against it.
Posts: 1563
These are the same vacuum tests that got us the OP state of heavy tanks.
The problem is not wiping full health infantry units but the consistently high damage output. Tigers rack up too many kills in too short of a time period. They also do too many wipes against retreating units, right now they basically always get the wipe on a squad that retreats slightly too late because they just don't miss all that often. They also get a lot of wipes against units with low-medium health. Keep in mind that in late-game most units that face the Tiger are not full health 6 man squads. There is so much artillery, small arms fire and vehicles around. Then there is also the problem of the OKW Tiger's barrage ability that makes it almost impossible to effectively use AT-guns against it.
Yeah Like AT guns work wonders on an IS2 and like IS2/Pershing doesn't never wipes squads at all.
I feel your being too complacent and asking for 300 ish mp units to counter(or even hold back) 600+ mp, 200+ f units. Ohh.. lets just use multiple cheap at guns (that's easy for me to make multiple of) to render my opponents 600+ mp and 200+ f investment useless.
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Yeah Like AT guns work wonders on an IS2 and like IS2/Pershing doesn't never wipes squads at all.
I feel your being too complacent and asking for 300 ish mp units to counter(or even hold back) 600+ mp, 200+ f units. Ohh.. lets just use multiple cheap at guns (that's easy for me to make multiple of) to render my opponents 600+ mp and 200+ f investment useless.
Reading comprehension 0/10. As usual for COH2 forums nowadays. So many people are not even capable of reading basic sentences.
"IS2 and like IS2/Pershing doesn't never wipes squads at all."
What I wrote:
They also do too many wipes against retreating units, right now they basically always get the wipe on a squad that retreats slightly too late because they just don't miss all that often. They also get a lot of wipes against units with low-medium health. "
I mean do you even read?
And btw yes: AT-guns work decent vs Pershing (due to low armour and HP) while they don't work well vs Tiger, KT and IS2.
Posts: 500
It's only logical to invest in a heavy since it counters most other units and is easier to use than equal investment if medium/light tanks.
Any heavy tank that isn't an IS 2 is pretty easily repelled from my experience, however what I do not like is OKWs artillery ability as well as smoke ability on any heavy unit(that involves the Churchill and it's derivatives).
One could attempt tuning heavy tanks' offensive abilities down a little together with a price decrease, in order to make them alternatives to medium tanks instead of just straight up the better choice. Kinda like the Churchill is.
Posts: 1563
Reading comprehension 0/10. As usual for COH2 forums nowadays. So many people are not even capable of reading basic sentences.
What I wrote:
I mean do you even read?
And btw yes: AT-guns work decent vs Pershing (due to low armour and HP) while they don't work well vs Tiger, KT and IS2.
This is what you said:
Tigers rack up too many kills in too short of a time period. They also do too many wipes against retreating units
In this context "they" should mean Tiger. Not my fault bro.
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
This is what you said:
Tigers rack up too many kills in too short of a time period. They also do too many wipes against retreating units
In this context "they" should mean Tiger. Not my fault bro.
How can "they"in the context of heavy tanks mean ONLY-Tiger???
Edit: I just realized it was indeed misleading.
The Tiger is still the worst offender at least in 2v2. So it wouldnt be wrong any way you look at it. Maybe take the Axis glasses off if you dont even admit the Tiger is too op.
Posts: 1563
How can "they"in the context of heavy tanks mean ONLY-Tiger???
Edit: I just realized it was indeed misleading.
The Tiger is still the worst offender at least in 2v2. So it wouldnt be wrong any way you look at it. Maybe take the Axis glasses off if you dont even admit the Tiger is too op.
And your saying The IS2 is not, It effing fires at 4 man squads dude, by late game most of allied main lines are at minimum 5 man squads. And Allies have higher dps output with their shocks/2x bar rifles/2x bren sections/Rangers/mandos and 2x lmg paras. It's actually axis squad who are low most of the time. Take your allied goggles off. Heavies Fuck everyone regardless of faction.
Posts: 306
And your saying The IS2 is not, It effing fires at 4 man squads dude, by late game most of allied main lines are at minimum 5 man squads. And Allies have higher dps output with their shocks/2x bar rifles/2x bren sections/Rangers/mandos and 2x lmg paras. It's actually axis squad who are low most of the time. Take your allied goggles off. Heavies Fuck everyone regardless of faction.
i had a tiger killing my schocks in 2 shots (1 shot then i retreated got them on the retreat), so does the is2 with grens, the problem is the tiger gets much higher rof with vet making him capable of landing more shots in then the is2, making him overall better then the is2 (against inf).
Sqad size doesnt really matter that much against heavies becouse of sqad bunching etc.
This is not even due to misplay, you sit in green cover bunched , see the heavy retreat close together and get wiped. Thats why the tiger seems oppresive since in can get more shots in then the is2
Edit: If the is2 gets his YOLO armor nerf, so should the tiger be looked at, since its vet doesnt fit in well with the changes + it has lower vet requirements than the is2, for no apparent reason, while having higher damage output
Posts: 320
And your saying The IS2 is not, It effing fires at 4 man squads dude, by late game most of allied main lines are at minimum 5 man squads. And Allies have higher dps output with their shocks/2x bar rifles/2x bren sections/Rangers/mandos and 2x lmg paras. It's actually axis squad who are low most of the time. Take your allied goggles off. Heavies Fuck everyone regardless of faction.
Except that Tiger I has the highest ROF of all heavies etc. They are in maaaaany axis doctrines with great abilities like fragmentation bombing, panzer tactician, stuka AT strafe or the OKW Tiger with smoke screen/recon, Panzerfusiliers and tank commander. Allied heavies are too strong AI wise too, but are not as broken as the Tiger I atm. Currently it's like if SuperPanther and vet69 P4 had a baby.
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