StuG and SU-76

If this was 2013 with higher cost in tech, sure. Do you really think people will go take the Su76 just because once they get vet 2 they will get a better barrage compared to the Zis?

Zis (all AT guns) "stocks" went up the moment indirect fire was less of a non brainer automatic units. The unit got many nerfs (deserved) with the aim of answering the Su76 spam.

Reminder that the point was: If we bring mediums back, we will see more Su76s. I'm saying that we HAD a medium meta and the Su76 didn't saw much use.

Let me rephrase then a medium tank destroyer will not see much action if there no mediums build and if mediums can be countered by more cost efficient options.

Point stand that without medium why bother with medium TD?

I feel both units are fine, they just suffer due to the small time window before heavies hit the field. Fix the heavy timing issue and both units can see more action

TWP should help the StuG fight Heavy tanks, and only heavy tanks.

I would propose: change stun to -50% rotation/acceleration, disables main gun, lasting 5 seconds, but fires up to 3 shells. These shells would still do 80 damage.

Vs another medium, this would not net the StuG any advantage other than delaying the fight. However, if 2 StuGs were to engage a heavy, one could stun the Heavy while the other keeps firing.

Idk. The stugs shouldn't be any more able to mob heavies than the su76 can. We don't need more spam one unit and fix all kinda units that the us76 was changed to prevent. What you use to fight mediums shouldn't be what you plan to use to fight heavies. If the enemy is transitioning to heavier and more expensive units the counters should scale as well where applicable.

Idk. The stugs shouldn't be any more able to mob heavies than the su76 can. We don't need more spam one unit and fix all kinda units that the us76 was changed to prevent. What you use to fight mediums shouldn't be what you plan to use to fight heavies. If the enemy is transitioning to heavier and more expensive units the counters should scale as well where applicable.

Heavies are generalists, StuGs and SU-76s are dedicated tank destroyers.

They shouldn't be as good as SU-85s and Panthers against heavies, but an equal investment of fuel should work.

If a trio of Pumas can take an IS-2 frontally at point blank, the StuG and SU-76 definitely should be able to.

Heavy tanks do not need to render a whole tier of AT unit useless on top of all their other ridiculous advantages.

Stug is fine and su-76 is situational at best.

The problem with the su76 is the lack of a turret tbh, it loses to most vehicles but if supported by zis can make stalling strats work better.

Heavies are generalists, StuGs and SU-76s are dedicated tank destroyers.

They shouldn't be as good as SU-85s and Panthers against heavies, but an equal investment of fuel should work.

If a trio of Pumas can take an IS-2 frontally at point blank, the StuG and SU-76 definitely should be able to.

Heavy tanks do not need to render a whole tier of AT unit useless on top of all their other ridiculous advantages.

Equal cost =/= equal investment though. Both the su76 and stug come from a 2nd highest tier while heavies are tied to the highest AND cost a boat load more. I support increased pen at close range for sure but the units used to invalidate medium armour shouldn't be the same ones to counter heavy armour. That's the whole basis of the Jackson discussions. Perhaps allowing these 2 units deflection damage once the final tier is unlocked would allow them to HELP against heavy armour without overdoing it but I wouldn't go much further than that I remember su76 and stug spams both and each were nerfed specifically to prevent critical mass that lacked a viable counter.

Equal cost =/= equal investment though. Both the su76 and stug come from a 2nd highest tier while heavies are tied to the highest AND cost a boat load more.

The StuG is in medium tank tier with the Panzer IV. The IS-2 is in medium tank tier with the T-34/76, the Pershing is in medium tank tier with the Sherman, the OKW Tiger I is in medium tank tier with the OKW Panzer IV.

Heavies are tied to medium tech. Until they get a ~100 FU teching barrier separating them from mediums, they're medium-tier generalists. Trying to balance them as some sort of tier up is like sticking the OKW Panzer IV in Mechanized.

The StuG is in an equivalent tech tier to the Jackson. It's cheaper, but it's also a 50 range casemate with less health and penetration.

It shouldn't do as well against heavily armoured units, but it should not be almost completely neutered by a generalist in the same tier.


The SU-76 is a little more difficult. It's not for killing light vehicles: the SU-76 doesn't counter any light vehicle the T-70 doesn't already. It used to be a hybrid light TD/artillery tractor for more defensive play. Then it got a munitions cost on its barrage to stop teamgame SU-76 spam, and since then it's been a dead unit outside of pre-rework heavy stalling.

I think what the SU-76 really needs is for the balance team to decide what it is.

I support increased pen at close range for sure but the units used to invalidate medium armour shouldn't be the same ones to counter heavy armour. That's the whole basis of the Jackson discussions.

The problem is the Jackson is it doesn't have the close-range weakness the other 60-range TDs have. Turning it into some sort of anti-heavy silver bullet is an idiotic design choice. Doctrinal, medium tier heavies should not demand a 140ish FU counter unit that isn't good against anything else. That's a perfect recipe for people rushing heavies every game.

Heavies are currently medium-tier vehicles and until we stop treating them like they're a tier up they're going to play like a medium tank in the light armour phase.

The StuG is in medium tank tier with the Panzer IV. The IS-2 is in medium tank tier with the T-34/76, the Pershing is in medium tank tier with the Sherman, the OKW Tiger I is in medium tank tier with the OKW Panzer IV.

Heavies are tied to medium tech. Until they get a ~100 FU teching barrier separating them from mediums, they're medium-tier generalists. Trying to balance them as some sort of tier up is like sticking the OKW Panzer IV in Mechanized.

The StuG is in an equivalent tech tier to the Jackson. It's cheaper, but it's also a 50 range casemate with less health and penetration.

It shouldn't do as well against heavily armoured units, but it should not be almost completely neutered by a generalist in the same tier.


The SU-76 is a little more difficult. It's not for killing light vehicles: the SU-76 doesn't counter any light vehicle the T-70 doesn't already. It used to be a hybrid light TD/artillery tractor for more defensive play. Then it got a munitions cost on its barrage to stop teamgame SU-76 spam, and since then it's been a dead unit outside of pre-rework heavy stalling.

I think what the SU-76 really needs is for the balance team to decide what it is.



The problem is the Jackson is it doesn't have the close-range weakness the other 60-range TDs have. Turning it into some sort of anti-heavy silver bullet is an idiotic design choice. Doctrinal, medium tier heavies should not demand a 140ish FU counter unit that isn't good against anything else. That's a perfect recipe for people rushing heavies every game.

Heavies are currently medium-tier vehicles and until we stop treating them like they're a tier up they're going to play like a medium tank in the light armour phase.

Heavy timing is still under construction and I do believe a tech to unlock them is necessary. Something woth a cost but more importantly a long "build" time and it should be in the tank tier as it would block out armour production while it's being researched so they need an army to stall for them instead of simply being rushed.

And regardless of the exact tier, they lie in each factions top tier (or close enough for Ost) and heavies basicly ARE like a medium tank in the light phase. That's the point, but that's why they are limited to 1 now so that they may be zoned. Additionally both the StuG and the su76 are not in their respective end tiers. There is still more to thier factions and neither of those tiers are SUPPOSED to last to the 1 hour mark. Both have room to escalate and heavy armour ensures that they will.

I agree that the medium TDs shouldn't be neutered against heavy tanks but we do not want the return of spamming cheap TDs to ensure the enemy can not use any armour regardless of size. We have been there and it was cancer. Thus why I suggested adding deflection damage on full tech. The issue with these units now (less so for the su76 due to the barrage) is that they don't scale past being AT units when they become more obsolete. Light vehicles can fall back on their scouting should they remain alive when they lose their prime operational time, these 2 units less so. Deflection damage would allow them to contribute against heavy armour without overstepping into heavy TD levels.

For the su76 I'd try reducing the cost of its barrage with vet instead of tracking so that it can continue supporting with less weight on its AT.



If the Jackson isn't the answer to everything on tracks or wheels anymore it wouldn't need such a high price tag but it could be given scouting capability if it doesn't do fucking everything as well. It used to have it and it could again I feel.

Again, heavy timing is still under the scope so making them their own tier is more than possible but saying they are medium tier without accounting for the fact that they are nearly 2x the cost of a medium and also hard limited and doctrinal is disappointingly short sighted. In the time when players are already teched for armour saving for a heavy puts you at a 2/1 tank disadvantage much like going 2 cons vs 1 penal reduces your field presence. At that point holding out can cost you as much as a tech cost can by bleed and lost ground. It's not as black and white by that stage.

Heavy timing is still under construction and I do believe a tech to unlock them is necessary. Something woth a cost but more importantly a long "build" time and it should be in the tank tier as it would block out armour production while it's being researched so they need an army to stall for them instead of simply being rushed.

We're not getting one. I used to support this idea too, but these days I think it'd be a mistake. A whole tech tier should not be a doctrinal thing unless you want to force every game to be a heavy game. And every game being a heavy tank game is the whole problem.

And regardless of the exact tier, they lie in each factions top tier (or close enough for Ost) and heavies basicly ARE like a medium tank in the light phase.

They shouldn't be. Imagine putting a P4 in Mechanized: you'll kill off all the other light vehicles and it'd turn into rushing mediums.


So long as heavies are mostly doctrinal units, they should fit into the nondoctrinal balance. They should not warp the whole game around them like they do at the moment.

Additionally both the StuG and the su76 are not in their respective end tiers. There is still more to thier factions and neither of those tiers are SUPPOSED to last to the 1 hour mark.

This applies to SOV T3, but it does not apply to OST T3. OST T3 is a medium armour tech like SOV T4, USF T3, OKW T3 and UKF T2.

I agree that the medium TDs shouldn't be neutered against heavy tanks but we do not want the return of spamming cheap TDs to ensure the enemy can not use any armour regardless of size.

If doctrinal heavy tanks are necessary to deal with StuGs and SU-76s, then the nondoctrinal roster isn't balanced and needs to be reworked.

Again, heavy timing is still under the scope so making them their own tier is more than possible but saying they are medium tier without accounting for the fact that they are nearly 2x the cost of a medium and also hard limited and doctrinal is disappointingly short sighted.

What I'm saying is they should be balanced like a 230 FU medium: they should lose to 230 FU of medium-tier tank destroyer, and have an anti-infantry firepower disadvantage relative to two mediums to offset their survability and anti-tank advantage.

They're doctrinal units. They should be a different option to building a medium tank and a tank destroyer. Right now they're a better option.