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IS cover bonus and Pyro

1 Feb 2020, 15:31 PM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Since the Vision debate is monopolizing the UKF feedback thread think it is time to create a new one just for that issue


To repeat what has already been said, seing as you love pointless repetition so much:

Snipers have 45 sight range
Pyro Sections have 42 sight range
Other recon squads like JLI or Pathfinders have 50 sight range.
Snipers with veterancy permanently have 54 sight range
Pyro Sections with veterancy have 52 sight range and only in cover


They're on curve.

Thanks for providing stat for comparison.
1 Feb 2020, 15:40 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



I was doing it ironically. But as you're taking it seriously?

Surely you must aggree, that pfusis having a flare and everything else above is a huge issue, and we must immediately nerf pfusis.

It's the exact same logic. Here is a list of lots of strong things about pfusis, therefore they must be an issue, therefore we must nerf them.

pls continue here
1 Feb 2020, 15:57 PM
#3
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Speaking of pyro, I don't think they deserve a smoke drop like what Heavy Cav has doctrinally. They should just have access to a regular smoke nade for 15munis.
1 Feb 2020, 16:02 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Speaking of pyro, I don't think they deserve a smoke drop like what Heavy Cav has doctrinally. They should just have access to a regular smoke nade for 15munis.

I am not sure they probably wanted to make it base guns and it was not possible?
1 Feb 2020, 16:04 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Except I agree on Fusiliers losing the extra snare range, so how are you gonna attack my argument now that you can’t find a bias?

pls continue here
1 Feb 2020, 16:07 PM
#6
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Speaking of pyro, I don't think they deserve a smoke drop like what Heavy Cav has doctrinally. They should just have access to a regular smoke nade for 15munis.


Agreed, though I can’t suggest putting it on the officer (just like Ost) since UKF officer has recon run.

Therefore I think it’s fine that Sections have them, but I’d cut 5 range of vision from the pyro upgrade.
1 Feb 2020, 16:11 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Imo the problem is not the performance of the pyro section themselves.

The problem is that one can upgrade all his mainline infatry with it.

That is why I suggested this:

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2020, 16:13 PMVipper

I agree with that and I think is part of problem with IS since adding Pyro/healing on them is non brainier decision.

But I have a different suggestions:
Pyro now increases squad size to 5 (without bolster) add 1-2 scoped Enfiled increasing far DPS lowering close and take up all weapons slots. Could add some ability maybe vs snipers or infatry detection.

Medic now increases squad size to 5 (without bolster) tuns one of the entities to medic and take up a weapon slot.

Now Pyro/Medic are not upgrades for all squads since the come with limitations.
1 Feb 2020, 18:01 PM
#8
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

Speaking of pyro, I don't think they deserve a smoke drop like what Heavy Cav has doctrinally. They should just have access to a regular smoke nade for 15munis.


A very important note about pyro smoke drop now is that it have a significant delay and share cooldown with base artillery. If you give pyro section smoke grenade then it will be the same issue like old rifle. I mean, global cooldown for an off map smoke barrage is fine, but share cooldown to throw a grenade between infantry squad is very nonsense. And on top of that, smoke grenade will allow pyro section to come out of nowhere and throw base arty at you.

I think the current application of pyro section's smoke barrage is good
1 Feb 2020, 19:49 PM
#9
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I agree with vipper about the squads upgrades+bolster+weapon slots problem.

Even if it means investing KT amount of resources on mainline infanry, it definitely leads to uncounterable infantry sooner or later, then the game balance will iterate around nerfing or buffing the full upgraded squad timing.

You dont have diversity if you can just stack up all the upgrades, imagine a CoD MP game where you can simply load yourself with an LMG, a .50 cal rifle, a couple of SMG akimbo, of course an RPG Stinger and a buttload of flashbangs...
2 Feb 2020, 04:25 AM
#10
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

So any changes expected on pyro sight?

Imo no durable mainline infantry should have sight almost as good as a vet2 sniper.

I guess this has been the story about balancing.

Buffing certain units have a cascading unintended side effect, especially positive for allies cost efficiency. :(
2 Feb 2020, 05:42 AM
#11
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2020, 16:11 PMVipper
Imo the problem is not the performance of the pyro section themselves.

The problem is that one can upgrade all his mainline infatry with it.

That is why I suggested this:


G43s on pfusies is the same way though (at least it's doctrinal, but still, they're a much better unit overall because of 6 man, snares, ridiculous moving DPS).
2 Feb 2020, 09:11 AM
#12
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

I agree with vipper about the squads upgrades+bolster+weapon slots problem.

Even if it means investing KT amount of resources on mainline infanry, it definitely leads to uncounterable infantry sooner or later, then the game balance will iterate around nerfing or buffing the full upgraded squad timing.

You dont have diversity if you can just stack up all the upgrades, imagine a CoD MP game where you can simply load yourself with an LMG, a .50 cal rifle, a couple of SMG akimbo, of course an RPG Stinger and a buttload of flashbangs...


Mod team said bolster is an pandora box that they dont want to open. I personally not against such a rework if it can make sections better balance, but the chance is small.
2 Feb 2020, 11:08 AM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


G43s on pfusies is the same way though (at least it's doctrinal, but still, they're a much better unit overall because of 6 man, snares, ridiculous moving DPS).

What is the range of PF sight?
Can PF call in arty?
Can PF drop Smoke?
Can someone survive the first minutes while using only PF for each mainline infatry?
2 Feb 2020, 12:44 PM
#14
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 11:08 AMVipper
What is the range of PF sight?
Can PF call in arty?
Can PF drop Smoke?
Can someone survive the first minutes while using only PF for each mainline infatry?


Can Tommies throw flares?
Can Tommies have the longest range vehicle snare in the game?
Can Tommies sprint with Vet?
Can someone survive the first few minutes against a well played sniper using only tommies for mainline?
2 Feb 2020, 12:45 PM
#15
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


G43s on pfusies is the same way though (at least it's doctrinal, but still, they're a much better unit overall because of 6 man, snares, ridiculous moving DPS).


Pfusiliers also need a nerf. I don’t understand why they keep being thrown around like some kind of benchmark unit.
2 Feb 2020, 13:18 PM
#16
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

Why would Panzerfusiliers need a nerf? VSL Grens blow them out of the water at any range, are allot more affordable and don't cost you early game strength. Upgraded Allied mainlines tend to do the same.

They have some gimmicks like great moving accuracy, extra sight and ultra ranged snares, but that doesn't really make them overperform. I didn't see many (any?) players swallow the high investment cost of getting multiple Panzerfusiliers in WCS.

They're fine, aside from that snare range increase with vet.
2 Feb 2020, 13:21 PM
#17
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Buffing certain units have a cascading unintended side effect, especially positive for allies cost efficiency. :(


This is not unintended. And not really a matter of cost efficiency either given how much more expensive Infantry Sections are compared to Grens and Volks.
2 Feb 2020, 14:06 PM
#18
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

But once bolster comes in, IS is pretty good value no?

In past without medics, there is opportunity cost to pay for great sight. With the buff, i think sight needs tone down.

The unvet 222 has lesser sight no? I mean if you put sight on UC or AEC, ok. But stock infantry, that's a bit of a tough one..

Its like suddenly lmg gren gains IRpf critical first shot on vet1.
2 Feb 2020, 14:13 PM
#19
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

But once bolster comes in, IS is pretty good value no?

In past without medics, there is opportunity cost to pay for great sight. With the buff, i think sight needs tone down.

Infantry Sections are more expensive to build, need Bolster and Weapon Racks side-techs (and grenade side-tech), need weapon upgrades and on top of that they need another specialization upgrade that is either healing or pyrotechnics to get the full use out of them. So no, there is nothing cost efficient about them.

Additionally, the new HQ medic squad will have poor healing, meant to be barely adequate to occasionally heal a support squad and allow non IS-heavy builds to function, but not enough to completely substitute healing IS. I do not expect to see a huge increase in pyrotechnics upgrades.


The unvet 222 has lesser sight no? I mean if you put sight on UC or AEC, ok. But stock infantry, that's a bit of a tough one.

No it doesn't. Unvetted Infantry Sections with the Pyro upgrade have 42 sight. An unvetted 222 has 50 sight. The AEC already has 50 sight range too.
2 Feb 2020, 18:05 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Can Tommies throw flares?
Can Tommies have the longest range vehicle snare in the game?
Can Tommies sprint with Vet?
Can someone survive the first few minutes against a well played sniper using only tommies for mainline?

Great none of this even remotely relevant to the topic.
Exclusive PF spam is not an issue atm and if it becomes one (which I doubt it can be solved by nerfing them). Pyro IS spam is potentially an issue since the got buff with smoke and indirectly with medics. Point here is avoid to create a problem with new Pyro changes.
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