G43's are simply OP

They only start with Kars because spawning out of garrisons would be too powerful otherwise, their actual default weapons are MP40's which have elite weapon stats:

Doesn't matter why.

0 / 15 / 35 range:
elite G43 - 13.263 / 6.877 / 3.5-ish

These stats on the pg g43's seems old. They received buffs to their mid and long range.
(0-6) / 15 /35 :
12.84(aim times cant be lower than a frame or 0.125 sec) / forgot / 4.11

It's more of a sidegrade than anything, one of the most prolific Stormtrooper users - Captainsprice - strongly prefers MP40 Storms over G43 Storms. But you have the choice since MP40's don't lock out other upgrades.

Who wouldn't. The g43 upgrade on stormies suck cus they cost more than pg and are worse than pg one under range 31. And getting m40's with g43's is a bad idea.

Doesn't matter why.

It does. Saying Storms should pay much more for their G43's than Pgrens ("you can justify that for pg's but not for ST's.") because they start with Kars instead of STG's is stupid, because their MP40's are free and can be upgraded anywhere.

These stats on the pg g43's seems old. They received buffs to their mid and long range.
(0-6) / 15 /35 :
12.84(aim times cant be lower than a frame or 0.125 sec) / forgot / 4.11

Sorry, was looking at the wrong changes so only saw the far range cooldown reduction from some patches ago. My point stands though: the MP40 and G43 are much more comparable than an M1 Garand and a Bar, in terms of overall performance. One is a sidegrade, the other an upgrade.

Who wouldn't. The g43 upgrade on stormies suck cus they cost more than pg and are worse than pg one under range 31. And getting m40's with g43's is a bad idea.

G43 Storms have their own benefits, like commando camo / passive healing / smoke nades / lower RA / etc. Also fyi you can't combine MP40's with G43's, because if a model dies the MP40 gets replaced with a Kar again.

It does. Saying Storms should pay much more for their G43's than Pgrens ("you can justify that for pg's but not for ST's.") because they start with Kars instead of STG's is stupid, because their MP40's are free and can be upgraded anywhere.

Never said st's should pay more simply said they pay less then bars regardless weather mp40's are supposed to be their default weapons or not.

Also both are upgrades. One vastly increases their cqc and one increases their all range performance. The fact that you can choose to use you Kar's and not go mp40 where commandos can not.

G43 Storms have their own benefits, like commando camo / passive healing / smoke nades / lower RA / etc. Also fyi you can't combine MP40's with G43's, because if a model dies the MP40 gets replaced with a Kar again.

here is the big problem. G43's on PG's are cheaper and their stg's perform way better at all ranges below 31. That bit of extra RA(around +6.5%) get overshadowed by the fact that the stg model +170% more dps at close. They have camo but their camo has no ambush bonus also when you upgrade with g43's your making them more front line infantry so camo is useless, if you wanna use camo then mp40 are way better. PG's also have nades to protect them from cqc infantry charging in storms do not.

Never said st's should pay more simply said they pay less then bars regardless weather mp40's are supposed to be their default weapons or not.

You said it's "yet another one of Lelic's money over balance design [choices]", which obviously isn't the reason why Storms/Pgrens pay only 50/60 munitions for their G43's.

Also both are upgrades. One vastly increases their cqc and one increases their all range performance.

The fact that you can choose to use you Kar's and not go mp40 where commandos can not.

Just because you can choose to eat leaves in your backyard or eat at a restaurant doesn't mean you should be doing the first. No one in his right mind chooses Kars over MP40's with Storms.

here is the big problem. G43's on PG's are cheaper and their stg's perform way better at all ranges below 31. That bit of extra RA(around +6.5%) get overshadowed by the fact that the stg model +170% more dps at close. They have camo but their camo has no ambush bonus also when you upgrade with g43's your making them more front line infantry so camo is useless, if you wanna use camo then mp40 are way better. PG's also have nades to protect them from cqc infantry charging in storms do not.

It's still a trade-off.

G43 Pgrens:
- Bundle nade
- Better veterancy scaling (accuracy increase starts at vet 1)
- Combined Arms ability (-10% RA + 20% speed near vehicles)
- STG as fourth weapon (but note: the guy that dies first)
- 10 munition cheaper upgrade

G43 Storms:
- Commando camouflage
- Passive healing
- Smoke grenade
- Incendiary grenade
- 5% better RA at vet 0, 4% better RA at vet 3
- 33mp vs 34mp reinforcement cost
- 33% faster decapture rate
- Booby traps

Storms are excellent at any range and I tend to upgrade them from MP40's to G43's once they hit vet 2 (when using Elite Troops that is). Passive healing, camo and smoke nades means they're much more flexible than Panzergrenadiers.

You said it's "yet another one of Lelic's money over balance design [choices]", which obviously isn't the reason why Storms/Pgrens pay only 50/60 munitions for their G43's.

Oh.. trust me it is Lelic money(pay to win) over balance design. And this point completely irrelevant to my response of what you said.

It's still a trade-off.

G43 Pgrens:
- Bundle nade
- Better veterancy scaling (RA reduction starts at vet 1)
- Combined Arms ability (-10% RA + 20% speed near vehicles)
- STG as fourth weapon (but note: the guy that dies first)
- 10 munition cheaper upgrade

G43 Storms:
- Commando camouflage(Not particularly useful for g43's)
- Passive healing(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- Smoke grenade(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- Incendiary grenade(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- 5% better RA at vet 0, 4% better RA at vet 3(This is Not G43's exclusive, and It can't compensate for the difference lack of dps)
- 33mp vs 34mp reinforcement cost(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- 33% faster decapture rate(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- Booby traps(This is Not G43's exclusive)

Oh.. trust me it is Lelic money(pay to win) over balance design. And this point completely irrelevant to my response of what you said.

"pgren g43's are each like BARs, Also they have extremely good moving dps. Compared to 3 bar they are quite cheap (50/60 muni vs 180 muni, yet another one of Lelic's money over balance design)."
"Well obviously the upgrade doesn't cost 180 munitions because you're not upgrading from an M1 Garand, but an Stg44 / elite MP40 on a limited amount of expensive squads."
"Yeah, You can justify that for pg's but not for ST's. Their default weapon is kar98's. The mp40's are still free."
"It does. Saying Storms should pay much more for their G43's than Pgrens ("you can justify that for pg's but not for ST's.") because they start with Kars instead of STG's is stupid, because their MP40's are free and can be upgraded anywhere."
"Never said st's should pay more simply said they pay less then bars regardless weather mp40's are supposed to be their default weapons or not."

Ok, so you don't want to them to pay more, but why do you call it "money over balance" design that G43's are 50/60 muni then?

G43 Pgrens:
- Bundle nade
- Better veterancy scaling (RA reduction accuracy increase*, my bad starts at vet 1)
- Combined Arms ability (-10% RA + 20% speed near vehicles)
- STG as fourth weapon (but note: the guy that dies first)
- 10 munition cheaper upgrade

G43 Storms:
- Commando camouflage(Not particularly useful for g43's)
- Passive healing(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- Smoke grenade(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- Incendiary grenade(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- 5% better RA at vet 0, 4% better RA at vet 3(This is Not G43's exclusive, and It can't compensate for the difference lack of dps)
- 33mp vs 34mp reinforcement cost(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- 33% faster decapture rate(This is Not G43's exclusive)
- Booby traps(This is Not G43's exclusive)

I listed the benefits of G43 Storms over G43 Pgrens. MP40 Storms vs G43 Storms would be another list.

There are different reasons to consider going from MP40's to G43's:
- Your opponent is adjusting to your MP40 Storms so they don't have quite as much impact.
- You have multiple Storms and it's hard to micro them all around the map to get in good positions.
- Your opponent is investing in short range squads that shred MP40 Storms one on one.
- The battlefield has become more deadly with tanks and indirect fire, making it risky to close in.
- Fights have become big blob vs big blob brawls and you need more long ranged firepower.
- Your opponent is microing his Sniper well so you need a longer range counter against it.
- You're bleeding too much because of above reasons.

G43 Storms are an excellent balance between the utility of MP40 Storms and flexibility of G43 Pgrens.

yet another one of Lelic's money over balance design)

Hey, so it seems like you don't know, but the people that currently do balance and are responsible for the current state of g43s (me, the team, and the community) get paid absolutely nothing. Relic, the one that does get paid, has close to nothing to do with balancing right now.

- Commando camouflage (Not particularly useful for g43's)

On the contrary. Elite G43s are all-range weapons, which means that with camouflage Stormtroopers get to cherry pick the most favourable range from which to engage, or better said it allows them to open up at a particular enemy's most vulnerable range. They can engage CQC squads from max range or they can ambush long range squads from close-mid range, etc., and always keep the relative DPS advantage over their enemy this way.

Not to mention that camouflage allows them to hide on retreat paths and gun down enemy retreating squads with their G43s' excellent moving DPS.

Hey, so it seems like you don't know, but the people that currently do balance and are responsible for the current state of g43s (me, the team, and the community) get paid absolutely nothing. Relic, the one that does get paid, has close to nothing to do with balancing right now.

I know that, but weren't g43's srlsy OP on release. Yeah you guys made it balanced Lelics goal with this was that sweet money from all the Jager Infantry Doctrine purchases.

On the contrary. Elite G43s are all-range weapons, which means that with camouflage Stormtroopers get to cherry pick the most favourable range from which to engage, or better said it allows them to open up at a particular enemy's most vulnerable range. They can engage CQC squads from max range or they can ambush long range squads from close-mid range, etc., and always keep the relative DPS advantage over their enemy this way.

Not to mention that camouflage allows them to hide on retreat paths and gun down enemy retreating squads with their G43s' excellent moving DPS.

I'm pretty the camo on storms don't give any bonuses + cqc infantry can just charge in due how the mod team decided how it was necessary give them super high RA/armor so that they take virtually no damage while charging in so i don't really see how that's useful. That only leaves long range squad but let's be real the mp40 is way better for that they out dps g43 till range 14 beyond that even g43's have hard time dealing with brens/bar/m1919's so i don't see the point.

I do think G43s having such a ridiculously high moving acc modifier is really cancerous, and unhealthy for the game. It rewards the one-control-group-blob running around much more than any other weapon profile does.

Even though I mocked Latch for showing a video where his opponent positioned 3 squads on his retreat path, I do fundamentally agree with him overall.

If their moving acc modifier was reduced significantly (maybe to BAR levels) and they got a dps buff I'd be happy with that.

I do think G43s having such a ridiculously high moving acc modifier is really cancerous, and unhealthy for the game. It rewards the one-control-group-blob running around much more than any other weapon profile does.

Even though I mocked Latch for showing a video where his opponent positioned 3 squads on his retreat path, I do fundamentally agree with him overall.

If their moving acc modifier was reduced significantly (maybe to BAR levels) and they got a dps buff I'd be happy with that.

I think the entire G43 upgrade should be reworked in its every iteration. 1-2 G43s per squad, long range scoped weapon that has high accuracy at long ranges and provides extra sight, but with poor (typical) moving accuracy. Could even have it not lock out the MG42 (but take up a weapon slot regardless).

Making G43s worth their while on PGrens or the Stormtroopers without being cancerous is probably borderline impossible though, since you are directly competing with basically a BAR on the PGren side and an ultra high close DPS SMG on the other.

I'm pretty the camo on storms don't give any bonuses + cqc infantry can just charge in due how the mod team decided how it was necessary give them super high RA/armor so that they take virtually no damage while charging in so i don't really see how that's useful. That only leaves long range squad but let's be real the mp40 is way better for that they out dps g43 till range 14 beyond that even g43's have hard time dealing with brens/bar/m1919's so i don't see the point.

The point isn't that G43s are better than MP40s at short range. They aren't. The point is that G43s are way more versatile. They are good enough to kill any long range squad in a close range ambush, while also being good against CQC squads because they can open up from long range (they can win against Rangers with some good RNG).

And "super high RA/armor" squads are actually only two squads (Rangers and Shocks) while there are many more CQC squads (Commandos, Cav Rifles, Paratroopers, Assault Engineers, Assault/Airborne Guards, Assault Sections, PPSH Cons, PPSH Penals, double BAR Riflemen) that get shredded by G43 Stormtroopers ambushing from long range.

even g43's have hard time dealing with brens/bar/m1919's so i don't see the point.

That's a player related issue then. G43 Storms shouldn't pick a long range fight with these squads. It's exactly my point that their camouflage allows G43 Stormtroopers to negate the long range advantage that these weapons have by waiting in camouflage (and in heavy cover) for these squads to move in closer before opening up. That is what makes G43s on Stormtroopers better than G43s on Panzergrenadiers.

they can win against Rangers with some good RNG

Un upgraded Rangers sure, Thompson rangers no way in hell, I'v tested unless they are charging from a long stretch of red cover that doesn't happen.

And "super high RA/armor" squads are actually only two squads (Rangers and Shocks).

Aren't you on the mode team??? Commandos have 0.72 compared to ranger 0.73, Like what????

That's a player related issue then. G43 Storms shouldn't pick a long range fight with these squads. It's exactly my point that their camouflage allows G43 Stormtroopers to negate the long range advantage that these weapons have by waiting in camouflage (and in heavy cover) for these squads to move in closer before opening up. That is what makes G43s on Stormtroopers better than G43s on Panzergrenadiers.

Well if range 15 is considered long I really don't know what to say to you m8. Look, you might think that these are pretty convincing advantages the thing is it's not. The only real advantage g43's on storms have is simple pgrens take time to build and time to come into the field, while storms can be poped from a building in the field way quicker than a g43's pg.
Here is the biggest problem with your argument, You just spent 60 munis on a 340 mp unit. Your probably not going hiding it in ambush and waste you munitions. Ambushing long range doesn't do enough damage. The whole camo + g43's = versatility doesn't rally work out as well. Cus it's always better to use mp40's to ambush than spend 60 muni open up on a cqc squad from max range cus that kind beats the point of camo.

Even though I mocked Latch for showing a video where his opponent positioned 3 squads on his retreat path, I do fundamentally agree with him overall.

Let’s be real, if those were Shocks, Thompson Paras or even BAR riflemen it would have ended the same.

G43s are great on the move but at least they don’t have the alpha strike capability of Falls/Shocks/Paras/Rangers and they don’t really excel at any range.

Pfusiliers themselves are slightly overtuned, so that muddies the G43 conversation imo.

That only leaves long range squad but let's be real the mp40 is way better for that they out dps g43 till range 14 beyond that even g43's have hard time dealing with brens/bar/m1919's so i don't see the point.

This isn’t 19th century warfare where everyone stands in a line and fires. G43 Storms have elite camo, letting you cherry pick engagements where you have superior cover and the moving accuracy of G43s lets you deal damage to retreating or soft retreating squads which MP40s could not do.

Going purely by DPS is irrelevant which at some point you have to get in your head because it’s not a hard concept.

Look just how fast they drop models even on retreat, this is just 2 of thousands of examples that happen in every game.

lul. they get retreat under the fire from 3 squads with G43....whats did u expect?

Un upgraded Rangers sure, Thompson rangers no way in hell, I'v tested unless they are charging from a long stretch of red cover that doesn't happen.

G43 Stormtroopers ambushing from green cover from max range will win against charging Thompsons Rangers quite comfortably. Both at vet 0 and at vet 3.

Aren't you on the mode team??? Commandos have 0.72 compared to ranger 0.73, Like what????

I am, which is why I know the distinction between target size and received accuracy.
I'm not talking about target size. 0.72/0.73 isn't that low. I'm talking about received accuracy, of which vetted Rangers get 0.52 while Commandos only get 0.65.

0.5-0.56 is what most elite infantry get. Like Rangers, Stormtroopers and Obersoldaten.
0.65 is comparable to what most non-elite (but relatively low RA) squads get. Like Riflemen, Assault Sections or Assault Engineers (who all actually have lower RA).

Commandos don't get elite received accuracy, because they're meant to rely on their ambush camouflage (with the ambush bonus).

Here is the biggest problem with your argument, You just spent 60 munis on a 340 mp unit. Your probably not going hiding it in ambush and waste you munitions. Ambushing long range doesn't do enough damage.

Ever considered the problem might be that you apparently have no idea how to use camouflage to its best potential? It allows G43 Stormtroopers to trade efficiently against any type of enemy (except Shocks because of their extreme durability) because they can always pick favourable engagements. If you can't understand that by now (or don't want to), then I really can't help you.

If memory serves g43 storms should NOT be winning against Thompson rangers because Thompson rangers cost more and that is literally the only factor that matters. It doesn't matter if the storms are set up in the best scenario they could possibly be in cost>>>>>any other variable

I am, which is why I know the distinction between target size and received accuracy.
I'm not talking about target size. 0.72/0.73 isn't that low. I'm talking about received accuracy, of which vetted Rangers get 0.52 while Commandos only get 0.65.

0.5-0.56 is what most elite infantry get. Like Rangers, Stormtroopers and Obersoldaten.
0.65 is comparable to what most non-elite (but relatively low RA) squads get. Like Riflemen, Assault Sections or Assault Engineers (who all actually have lower RA).

That's still the wrong terminology I'm pretty sure:

- Rangers have 0,73 target size
- Rangers gain -29% received accuracy with veterancy
- Rangers their target size becomes 0,52

Not using RA and target size synonymously only makes discussions more confusing tbh. I think even in the patch notes target size is referred to as received accuracy:

Show Spoiler

Personally I only use target size when referring to tanks.

Not using RA and target size synonymously only makes discussions more confusing tbh.

I think it's the opposite personally. Using either term for all values is more confusing because there's no way to know what's being meant (unless the post is very elaborate, which is often not the case). Dividing it into target size (the base value) and received accuracy (the modified value after upgrades and veterancy) makes more sense, and it's the terminology I personally use, although of course nothing is universally agreed upon.

Rangers have 0.73 [target size] stock;
With veterancy they get a 0.71 (or -29%) [received accuracy modifier];
Vet 3 Rangers ultimately get 0.52 [received accuracy].