Winter balance (1/2020) feedback - Ostheer

Ostheer 1.3
HEAVY TANKS

In order to make it more rewarding to kill heavy call-in vehicles, all heavy tanks, heavy tank destroyers and heavy assault guns now have the following:

-Recharge standardized to 3 minutes
-Cooldown on ability now starts upon death of the heavy tank

Tiger - All variants


AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.15 to 0.75/0.25/0.15
AOE distance from 0.25/1.5/3 to 0/1/3
Veterancy 2 scatter bonus removed

The Tiger got quite a few adjustments that were deemed necessary to remove some of its somewhat oppressive performance. To compensate, we are granting the Tiger a bonus to its turret traverse speed at veterancy 2, something it lacked due to its previous scatter bonus which has now been removed.

Veterancy 2 now adds +30% turret traverse speed


-CP requirement from 9 to 12

Generalist Medium Tanks

In order to make generalist medium tanks more viable in the current meta, their durability is being increased by lowering their target size, making them more difficult to hit.

These changes should reduce the chance to get hit by 7-10% on medium to far range - ex: an 88% chance to get hit becomes an 80% chance.

The changes will not apply to Tank Destroyers and specialist vehicles based on a medium tank chassis. Units like the Sherman Firefly and Sherman 105mm will remain the same due to their role.

Panzer IV, Panzer IV Command Tank, and Panzer IV J

Target size from 22 to 20


Tech Changes

Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:

Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
Support Armour Korp (T3) no longer has a fuel cost
Heavy Panzer Korp (T4) building no longer has a fuel cost

XP values have been adjusted accordingly.

Credit to Derbyhat AKA Jibberjabber for originally proposing this change.

Heavy Panzer Korps

In an attempt to increase the power of Ostheer's late game without increasing the power of its units, we are giving the structure a passive bonus for the army. This will reward players for teching to T4 and allow Ostheer to be more aggressive by reducing the bleed on core infantry units. The increased capture speed should also allow Ostheer players to retake sections of the map more quickly in the late game.

Now provides reduces the reinforce cost of Pioneers, Grenadiers, and Osttruppen by 2
Reduces the reinforce cost of all team weapons by 10%
Increases the capture and decapture rate of all Ostheer infantry units by 25%


Puma

Tech requirement removed
Requires 5 CPs to be unlocked from the HQ; still has a build time.

Fragmentation Bombs

The following changes are in order to make fragmentation bombs less effective at the edges of the map, where they can wipe team weapons without a chance to react, while keeping their potency intact in more central positions.

-Delay from 2 to 4
-Plane speed from 175 to 275

Pak 40

Horizontal tracking speed from 12 to 14
Brummbar

Armour from 240 to 260

Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW

The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.

Projectile speed from 55 to 25

Ostheer LeFH 18

-Population from 15 to 13

Bug Fixes

-Ostheer Medical Kits should now immediately go on recharge after use
-Ostheer Puma no longer shares the same hotkey with the 222

1.2
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1.1

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1.0
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(updated to 1.3)

After initial testing:
There seem to be some issues with patch notes according to what I have seen:

Tiger:
Tiger is CP 11
Tiger ACE is CP 12


Tiger require BP 3
Tiger ACE requires T4 building.

That makes the gap between ACE/Tiger rather smaller and the ACE a better ability that would only be justifiable if the other commander abilities where inferior.

In addition the Tiger is not available when T4 is destroyed while the tiger is always available.

Comments:
Glad to see that CP requirement increases as I among other had suggested.
Glad to see that CD now start after unit lost as I had suggested.

Suggestion:
The Super heavies requiring a building on the map is problematic and should be removed for all these units. Once tech requirements are met this units should be always be available and access should not be locked.

For better balancing timing and cost for these simply add an extra tech.

The AOE is to be good, maybe tone done AI so it does not replace both the Panther and Brumbar
or
Change shell to either AP or HE.


Bombing run:
Suggestions:
Bombing run seem to rather slow in large map maybe try to reduce leathality abit but increase speed of planes?

Jagger light infatry upgrade:
description say it "add 2 G43" while currently it provides 3 to PG/ST.

Cost got the PG is 50 while for ST is 60 for no good reason.

Tiger Ace is trash. Full stop. I never use it and I prefer the old one. It's radically different from the normal Tiger and actually packs a punch.

Rework Ostruppen plz，reduce default RA to 1.1,vet1 to 1.0,vet3 to 0.8，and remove accuracy debuff……also rework Relief Infantry ability,replace by call in infantry or add some buff when active……
And could add a main gun upgrade for Commander P4？Need phase 3 and 30 fuel replace main gun by OKW P4J main gun，also use commander P4 replace new commander P4J……

Decent, tame changes but decent.

After initial testing:
Suggestion:
The Super heavies requiring a building on the map is problematic and should be removed for all these units. Once tech requirements are met this units should be always be available and access should not be locked.

Why? except for okw, when your opponent is destroying your base... well you lost the game already. And you need to able to punish greedy okw T4 buildings. If you dont want your HQ destroyed as OKW - and this might surprise alot OKW players - you can actually build it in your base sector.

Overall the changes are fine imo, i dont know if the brumbar needs more armor but i guess its ok.

So with the slower faust, does it allows LV to escape out of followup range before getting engine damage?

Why? except for okw, when your opponent is destroying your base... well you lost the game already. And you need to able to punish greedy okw T4 buildings. If you dont want your HQ destroyed as OKW - and this might surprise alot OKW players - you can actually build it in your base sector.

Overall the changes are fine imo, i dont know if the brumbar needs more armor but i guess its ok.

Consistency is a good enough reason. USF/UKF/OStheer could produce their super heavies soviet/okw would lose the ability.

Copying from main thread:

I dislike the Grenadier reinforcement change because it homogenizes the factions. I also prefer when reinforcement costs are consistently 50% of the entity's initial cost.

So, instead, I'd recommend improving their cost-effectiveness by increasing their firepower. It has the added benefit of scaling control. You could increase rifle DPS for early game, or MG DPS for late.

is a good enough reason. USF/UKF/OStheer could produce their super heavies soviet/okw would lose the ability.

i dont care about consistency when OKW is the only faction that would profit from that change.
What about the KT? As far as i know OKW is able to call in a KT when its T4 is destroyed.
If you want consistency, allies should be able to consistent punish greedy OKW player without a backup Tiger

Copying from main thread:

I dislike the Grenadier reinforcement change because it homogenizes the factions. I also prefer when reinforcement costs are consistently 50% of the entity's initial cost.

So, instead, I'd recommend improving their cost-effectiveness by increasing their firepower. It has the added benefit of scaling control. You could increase rifle DPS for early game, or MG DPS for late.

Imo their could be acceptation different rules for different units types and as little as possible exceptions.

For instance it would make sense for CQC units to be something like 15-25% cheaper to reinforce to bleed less.

Trash patch. the panzerwerfer is the same.
Panzer V the same
the problem of light vehicles has not been solved .....

Some alright changes but I think some are maybe a bit too tame and go in the wrong direction.

Tiger: 9 CP to 12 CP

Alright with the CP increase but I still feel full tech requirements should remain considering their current timing at 11 CP and also viewing how strong they are against all targets after receiving the scatter buffs.

Tech Changes

Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:

Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
Support Armour Korp (T3) no longer has a fuel cost
Heavy Panzer Korp (T4) building no longer has a fuel cost

15 fuel cost being taken from Tier 4 should help it come slightly earlier but I think the problem simply stems from Tier 4 units not being worth their current cost values. Brummbar gets hardcountered by a pair of AT Guns or a cheaper tank destroyer. The Ostheer Panther is also very inaccurate on the move. Werfer is sort of alright but I generally think it stinks in a 1v1 situation.

Grenadiers

Reinforce cost from 30 to 28

I don't think this buff will really do much to make Grens be able to compete with other mainline infantry units. The issue with Grens is a lack of durability before Vet 3, they simply get shredded. They also don't pack the same firepower that fully upgraded Tommies and Riflemen have. I would like to see them get access to the German Infantry Doctrine's 5-man upgrade at Battlephase 2 or 3. You could just replace that ability with a 3x G43 package for 60 muni or so.

Brummbar

Armour from 240 to 260

A nice little buff for the Brummbar but I don't think it will be enough to bring it back fully. I would look into maybe slightly reducing its cost.

Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW

The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.

Projectile speed from 55 to 25

Assuming this is more of a test change trying to figure out the cause of the Faust bug since reducing the speed for the faust would be a net nerf and a death blow to Ostheer in 1v1 in the current state of the game.

Some alright changes but I think some are maybe a bit too tame and go in the wrong direction.

Tiger: 9 CP to 12 CP

Alright with the CP increase but I still feel full tech requirements should remain considering their current timing at 11 CP and also viewing how strong they are against all targets after receiving the scatter buffs.

Tech Changes

Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:

Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
Support Armour Korp (T3) no longer has a fuel cost
Heavy Panzer Korp (T4) building no longer has a fuel cost

15 fuel cost being taken from Tier 4 should help it come slightly earlier but I think the problem simply stems from Tier 4 units not being worth their current cost values. Brummbar gets hardcountered by a pair of AT Guns or a cheaper tank destroyer. The Ostheer Panther is also very inaccurate on the move. Werfer is sort of alright but I generally think it stinks in a 1v1 situation.

Grenadiers

Reinforce cost from 30 to 28

I don't think this buff will really do much to make Grens be able to compete with other mainline infantry units. The issue with Grens is a lack of durability before Vet 3, they simply get shredded. They also don't pack the same firepower that fully upgraded Tommies and Riflemen have. I would like to see them get access to the German Infantry Doctrine's 5-man upgrade at Battlephase 2 or 3. You could just replace that ability with a 3x G43 package for 60 muni or so.

Brummbar

Armour from 240 to 260

A nice little buff for the Brummbar but I don't think it will be enough to bring it back fully. I would look into maybe slightly reducing its cost.

Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW

The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.

Projectile speed from 55 to 25

Assuming this is more of a test change trying to figure out the cause of the Faust bug since reducing the speed for the faust would be a net nerf and a death blow to Ostheer in 1v1 in the current state of the game.

You are right.
But how do you solve the problem of light tanks?
1vs1 OST is poor.

I think the Reinforce cost from 30 to 28 of the Grens will have an almost useless impact that will not help the unit's performance.

PD:I'm still waiting for delete of the "Infantry Relief" skill, be honest, how many times have you used or seen someone use this?

When will rework “relief infantry” and “rapid conscription”……
And better reduce PanzerGrenadier reinforcement cost to 32
And Commander PanzerIV and P4.J maybe request change to phase2？

Tiger - All variants
-CP requirement from 9 to 12

Comments
Step in the right direction.

Tech Changes
Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:
Show Spoiler

Comments
This change is not in the right direction one has simply to decide what T4 is for.

If it is for powerful late game units it should come late but provide powerful all around unit.

If it a choice between a T3 or T4 it should provide more flexible units (all around) or a combination of expensive and cheap units.

(One could move stug E to t3 ostwind to T4 and make brum doctrinal.)

Grenadiers
Reinforce cost from 30 to 28

Comments
A step in the wrong direction. If grenadiers do not cut it is other units to need to be looked at else you have power creep.


Pak 40
Horizontal tracking speed from 12 to 14


Comments
Not sure why it need better tracking than the 6 pounder/zis. If it has trouble vs light tanks then probably need tanks need a nerf.


Brummbar
Armour from 240 to 260

Comments
PLS change armor bonus + instead of * so that it has some impact in rear armor.



Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW
The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.
Projectile speed from 55 to 25

Comments
Great job om truing to fix bugs.

You are right.
But how do you solve the problem of light tanks?
1vs1 OST is poor.

that is l2p issue

not faction problem