Jackson VS Puma

Stug Speed: 6
T70 Speed: 6.9

Good luck "retreating", you are still wrong sir.

Is the stug your only unit? You retreat until you get closer to help from the rest of your army.

Like I said, it takes the t70 so long to kill it you have plenty of time

Unlike the puma vs. su85...

Is the stug your only unit? You retreat until you get closer to help from the rest of your army.

Like I said, it takes the t70 so long to kill it you have plenty of time

Unlike the puma vs. su85...

Post numbers or GTFO.

Real case scenarios show that both units gets displaced because they are outplayed. The same way for each of both

And next time quote the whole post, i explicitely said, i you want a real case scenario just ask it.
Mr Literall semantics wathever the limit

Stug Speed: 6
T70 Speed: 6.9

Good luck "retreating", you are still wrong sir.

And before you even mention it, if you really want a real case scenario just mention it.

i would love to see such misplay,

stug is faster then su 85 so gets better away. Puma has smoke much more dps, can actually pen from the front, this comparison is beyond ridiculous

Post numbers or GTFO.

Why don't you? I have to post numbers but you don't?

The puma has a 100% chance of penetrating su85 front or back at close range

The t70 has a 35% chance of penetrating stug front, and a 71% chance of penetrating rear armor, at close range

T70s reload speed is its only "advantage" here compared to puma, but it doesnt matter how fast you're reloading if you're doing 0 dmg on most of your shots...

Post numbers

Puma takes out an SU85 77.4% faster than a T70 can take out a STuG.
This assumes perfect flanks and no other support, as it gets WAY more complicated with those factors.


T70 vs. Stug close
Stug armor 140/70, 560hp
target size: 20

T70 reload: 2.43
Pen close: 50
damage: 40
accuracy near: 0.05
moving mult 0.5

50% chance to hit while moving (at close)
71.4% chance to pen vs. rear (at close
35.71% chance to damage vs. rear, at close

560hp/40dmg = 14 hits = 39.2 hits on avg. to destroy (with acc) = 39 reloads = 94.77sec average




Puma vs. Su85 close
su85 armor: 140/70, 640hp
target size: 18

puma reload: 4.11
pen close: 160
damage: 120
accuracy close: 0.05
moving mult: 0.05

45% chance to hit while moving (at close)
100% chance to pen vs. rear (at close)
45% chance to damage vs. rear, at close

640hp/120dmg = 5.33 hits = 6 hits (quantized dmg) = 13.33 hits on avg. to destroy (with acc) = 13 reloads = 53.43sec avg

If Distrofio can post a replay in which he destroys a full health StuG with a T70 in a shorter time before a Puma destroys a SU85 against a equally skilled opponent, he will get one friendly digital handshake from me. The challenge is now officially up.

94.77sec average vs. 53.43sec avg

Thanks for the math!

Post numbers or GTFO.

Real case scenarios show that both units gets displaced because they are outplayed. The same way for each of both

And next time quote the whole post, i explicitely said, i you want a real case scenario just ask it.
Mr Literall semantics wathever the limit

The T70 'bullying' a StuG from the rear armor is by far no 'real case scenario' mate. You probably won't really pen more than 2-3 shots before your T70 gets snared and killed by supporting units.

By any means, this whole diacussion is absolutely tidious and misleading. Can we go back to Puma vs Jackson kow?

Puma takes out an SU85 77.4% faster than a T70 can take out a STuG.
This assumes perfect flanks and no other support, as it gets WAY more complicated with those factors.


T70 vs. Stug close
Stug armor 140/70, 560hp
target size: 20

T70 reload: 2.43
Pen close: 50
damage: 40
accuracy near: 0.05
moving mult 0.5

50% chance to hit while moving (at close)
71.4% chance to pen vs. rear (at close
35.71% chance to damage vs. rear, at close

560hp/40dmg = 14 hits = 39.2 hits on avg. to destroy (with acc) = 39 reloads = 94.77sec average




Puma vs. Su85 close
su85 armor: 140/70, 640hp
target size: 18

puma reload: 4.11
pen close: 160
damage: 120
accuracy close: 0.05
moving mult: 0.05

45% chance to hit while moving (at close)
100% chance to pen vs. rear (at close)
45% chance to damage vs. rear, at close

640hp/120dmg = 5.33 hits = 6 hits (quantized dmg) = 13.33 hits on avg. to destroy (with acc) = 13 reloads = 53.43sec avg

To be honest the hit chances don't mean too much because of collision hits which (also had to learn this) make the natural hitchance completely useless. But if we assume every shot to hit it's about 25 sec for the Puma vs SU85 against 48 sec for the T70 to kill a StuG.

Puma doesn't need any buffing but I could totally see nerfing M36 armor (maybe to whatever the M10 has)

lol, the jackson needs a WAY bigger nerf then a teeny bit armour nerf.

lol, the jackson needs a WAY bigger nerf then a teeny bit armour nerf.

Pretty sure I haven't seen anyone suggest it only needs an armor nerf... That's just what this topic happens to be about...

If Distrofio can post a replay in which he destroys a full health StuG with a T70 in a shorter time before a Puma destroys a SU85 against a equally skilled opponent, he will get one friendly digital handshake from me. The challenge is now officially up.

I sincerely would like to, but of course it exceeds a real match possibilities and of course it would mean i am playing against ez-bots.

But dont misread me, i never said a stug goes down faster than a su85, that was someone else putting words in my mouth.

My point was and always will be. Since solo 1v1 a stug gets bullied with T70 (sidenote, i never ment to destroy, to bully is to mock and hit without retaliation) like a su85 with a puma, there are no real chances for the foremost to fight back. In a real scenario both units will retreat or hopefully last enough to get help. TTK and Pen/Armor were some of the answers back but both far off the point i was making. If i were asking "what color is this?" the aswer was like "I dont like apple". This kind of logic. And finally i was ready to continue the discussion about a real situation, but some people prefer to disrespect others and attack their persona rather their arguments. Pityful attitude IMO.

My quote back on "good luck retreating" was referring that a T70 having superior speed is able to keep up with the retreating stug. Some might add that screwing the pathfinding can help to steal some time, but again i never stated i was able to do such magic trick.

Again someone else is throwing dirt at my face and puts words i never said.


Added: Thanks doomlord52 for the detailed stats. I still lack of experience to gather those data reliably and fast enough to answer back in time.

Pretty sure I haven't seen anyone suggest it only needs an armor nerf

Allow me to introduce myself

But dont misread me, i never said a stug goes down faster than a su85, that was someone else putting words in my mouth.

No one ever said that you were saying this. The claim was made that a t70 can bully a stug, in the same way a puma can to an su85. That is a misleading claim, because the puma can bully an su85 MUCH better than a t70 can to a stug

And finally i was ready to continue the discussion about a real situation, but some people prefer to disrespect others and attack their persona rather their arguments. Pityful attitude IMO.

I responded to your claim about the puma and t70, and that's all anyone else did. Nothing more. No one said single word about your persona. Stop lying

TTK and Pen/Armor were some of the answers back but both far off the point i was making.

You are literally the one who demanded the numbers

Pretty sure I haven't seen anyone suggest it only needs an armor nerf...

Hey are you actually reading or just spitting sh*t?
I made a whole thread for this.

Nowhere in your original post do you say anything about the Jackson not needing other changes

And yes, I am reading. In the last thread you literally suggested another change besides the armor nerf:

What about making jackson sight dependent on movement?

I mean, its like a passive spottig scopes, but current sight is only when stationary and on the move is half of it, for example.

Jackson will no longer chase reliably, but can defend

I actually like the idea a lot. But you are clearly not saying all it needs is an armor nerf

Nowhere in your original post do you say anything about the Jackson not needing other changes
... But you are clearly not saying all it needs is an armor nerf

Since a mod invised it, i said clearly:
A stupid armor nerf to reduce a P4 bounce is just that, a stupid nerf

Doomlord58 already stated the most important information so i dont need to post it again to show my agreement. Wait, do you really need to talk like computers to understand? I was joking in the shoutbox JFYI.

And stop derailing and disrupting threads, this is about PUMA.

Since a mod invised it, i said clearly:
A stupid armor nerf to reduce a P4 bounce is just that, a stupid nerf

Doomlord58 already stated the most important information so i dont need to post it again to show my agreement. Wait, do you really need to talk like computers to understand? I was joking in the shoutbox JFYI.

And stop derailing and disrupting threads, this is about PUMA.

Im not the one who brought up t70 and stug, that was you lol

And last time I checked the title of your thread has another unit in it besides the Puma

I sincerely would like to, but of course it exceeds a real match possibilities and of course it would mean i am playing against ez-bots.

But dont misread me, i never said a stug goes down faster than a su85, that was someone else putting words in my mouth.

My point was and always will be. Since solo 1v1 a stug gets bullied with T70 (sidenote, i never ment to destroy, to bully is to mock and hit without retaliation) like a su85 with a puma, there are no real chances for the foremost to fight back. In a real scenario both units will retreat or hopefully last enough to get help. TTK and Pen/Armor were some of the answers back but both far off the point i was making. If i were asking "what color is this?" the aswer was like "I dont like apple". This kind of logic. And finally i was ready to continue the discussion about a real situation, but some people prefer to disrespect others and attack their persona rather their arguments. Pityful attitude IMO.

My quote back on "good luck retreating" was referring that a T70 having superior speed is able to keep up with the retreating stug. Some might add that screwing the pathfinding can help to steal some time, but again i never stated i was able to do such magic trick.

Again someone else is throwing dirt at my face and puts words i never said.


Added: Thanks doomlord52 for the detailed stats. I still lack of experience to gather those data reliably and fast enough to answer back in time.

The main point of complaint was that your example is unrealistic. Almost every turreted vehicle above the speed of a KT can drive behind a casemate and mostly keep out of the cone of fire. Matter of fact is that your T70 is way to expensive to drive behind a StuG to take shots at it, because you gain extremely little in terms of damage that you do but expose your T70 to high danger from supporting units and a lot of micro you have to invest to dodge those units and avoid a hit during retreat from the StuG. The scenarios in which somebody will rightfully decide to do this are sparse.
The Puma on the other hand has enough potential to use it for a dive and the smoke to get out of there. One of the purposes of this vehicle is flanking other vehicles, which can't be said about the T70.

Everyone got what you meant, but this does not mean that your example can make a point. Your point was "vehicle one can drive behind vehicle two and can't be shot". Yes, but for what purpose?

With this logic I could also say that the USF Flak half/T70/Stuart/AEC track could "bully" a Jagdtiger, ELefant or technically even a King Tiger due to the slow turret "in the same way" a Panther could bully an ISU. Yes, it can drive behind it. Does this comparison make much sense? No, it does not.



Now, back to the Jackson:

Armor nerf (10-30 armor) might be a decent semi-nerf, I think that's what the discussion here and in the previous thread mostly agrees on. What exactly is the reason that Jackson has also such high speed actually? Is it the unreliable ATG that USF has so the Jackson has to cover a larger area? Making it a bit slower could also be a possibility.