jackson armor nerf

You're making the Jackson being hard counter to both categories at cost of not being good vs both of them at the same time.
Today the Jackson is not good vs mediums, it is just the best option because Sherman AT sucks. I mean Stug or jpz4 are good vs mediums at cost of being casemate but stug is cheap and jpz4 has insane stats for its price.

Your solution isn't really going to solve the issue. As Ostheer you not going to have at the same time Pz4 and Pz5 (unless big game mode) so jackson will still be hard countering everything you deploy by selecting one or the other mode. As OKW, Pz4 and Pz5 will be countered by the low accuracy/High pen mode and PUMA/Jpz4 by the other one.

Don't get me wrong, as USF fanboy I'd love your idea to be implemented. But as a player seeking balance, not really

Imo, its better the make sherman AT being superior to what it is today and Jackson being only low acc/high pen etc.. mode

Today the Jackson IS GREAT vs mediums because it still retains the mobility, accuracy, Shots to kill (200 dmg low RoF still required 4 shots to kill a medium tank) while having the extra 160 HP to survive and the improved RoF on vanilla shots.

The Jackson would be better if it was a Firefly clone basically.

Because it cost 145 fuel and does nothing else than AT. It's like saying Jagpanther is good vs sherman, you don't build a jagpanther to counter a sherman because it is cost inefficient. Building a Jackson to counter a pz4 is cost inefficient but since there is nothing else available to do the job, you build it.

That is cost effiency and not perfomance.
And actually JP is not cost efficient vs meduim for the same reason.

But M36 at least has better penetration and works vs heavies.

In sort M36 hard counters PzIV (and the majority of axis vehicles).

The Jackson would be better if it was a Firefly clone basically.

in a raw probably, but where is the churchill equivalent for USF? Or the tulip. Again I don't see how having 2 fire mode is going to make it worst vs Pz4s unless making modes worst for the sake of it. But what in USF arsenal is going to counter Pz4s in that case? Only Atgun? People here tend to forget that Jackson is also counter for Pz4s.

in a raw probably, but where is the churchill equivalent for USF? Or the tulip. Again I don't see how having 2 fire mode is going to make it worst vs Pz4s unless making modes worst for the sake of it. But what in USF arsenal is going to counter Pz4s in that case? Only Atgun? People here tend to forget that Jackson is also counter for Pz4s.

The Jackson itself, AT gun, Zook and basically 1v1 trading against non skirt PIV with Sherman (you will lose on equal conditions).

I'll rather see nerf in other direction (armor and acceleration, keeping top speed) than 2 vet 0 munition types. I would rather see the accuracy of the weapon lowered down and instead semi heavies and heavies get their size increased to keep values equal against them.

Honestly you could probably remove the extra moving accuracy on it as well as the armor nerf; the M36 Jackson to my knowledge never received a gyrostabilized turret.

The Jackson itself, AT gun, Zook and basically 1v1 trading against non skirt PIV with Sherman (you will lose on equal conditions).

I'll rather see nerf in other direction (armor and acceleration, keeping top speed) than 2 vet 0 munition types. I would rather see the accuracy of the weapon lowered down and instead semi heavies and heavies get their size increased to keep values equal against them.

I don't like making such comparison but what about panther countering equally Jackson and mediums?
Jackson vs panther is a matter of positioning and opportunity.
Medium vs panther are no match for mediums.
Pz4 vs Jackson is also a matter of positioning and opportunity.

Why would the Jackson have to be less performant vs mediums than panther vs mediums? Also any nerf on the Jackson is going to break the balance vs Panthers which is in a good spot at the moment.

Various proposals have been made to nail the Jackson vs Heavies but all of them require modification on the mediums vs mediums balance and it seems Relic isn't going to allow it.

I don't like making such comparison but what about panther countering equally Jackson and mediums?
Jackson vs panther is a matter of positioning and opportunity.
Medium vs panther are no match for mediums.
Pz4 vs Jackson is also a matter of positioning and opportunity.

Why would the Jackson have to be less performant vs mediums than panther vs mediums? Also any nerf on the Jackson is going to break the balance vs Panthers which is in a good spot at the moment.

Various proposals have been made to nail the Jackson vs Heavies but all of them require modification on the mediums vs mediums balance and it seems Relic isn't going to allow it.

Since you brought up cost efficiency compare the cost effiency of M36 vs PzIVs and Panther vs allied meduims...

Since you brought up cost efficiency compare the cost effiency of M36 vs PzIVs and Panther vs allied meduims...

M36 can lose to 1 med when ambished, panther not really, so what's the problem?

Why would the Jackson have to be less performant vs mediums than panther vs mediums?

Range and cost.

Also any nerf on the Jackson is going to break the balance vs Panthers which is in a good spot at the moment.

This is why i said that semi heavies (aka PV) and heavies could see a size increase while reducing the acc of most TDs.

Various proposals have been made to nail the Jackson vs Heavies but all of them require modification on the mediums vs mediums balance and it seems Relic isn't going to allow it.

Mediums don't need to be touched.

I only suggest divorcing the omnipotent shells into separate, specialized shells because with 1 shell the Jacky boy really is king of the TDs the the point in sure even firstpersonshooterman can get milage out of it. HVAP is a bonus instead of a scaling tool as the Jackson already hits like a truck accurately and pens often. Ontop of all of its other traits to aid its survival and account for it being squishy, without it actually being squishy. It's the combination that makes it hard to balance, like the old isu to an extent. Separate its easier. If it's still over performing against mediums but fine against heavies? Change the medium shell. That's all it takes. It's cleaner and much easier without actually risking ruining the unit. And also opens up more reason to mix and mingle armour if the enemy composition is also mixed. Might see some m10s along side jacksons just so the heavy hitter is always there, of one of the 18 sherman variants the Jackson completely overshadows. I think it would be healthier for the game than the abomination we have now

Range and cost.



This is why i said that semi heavies (aka PV) and heavies could see a size increase while reducing the acc of most TDs.



Mediums don't need to be touched.

Don't you think the cost / opportunity is not already accurate between jacksons and mediums? Jacksons are only TDs unless panthers with their more than average AI power which define the cost of both units.

Jacksons vs mediums is a fair matchup with an advantage for Jackson. I don't really see the point of nerfing this advantage since USF has no other option to counter them.

Don't you think the cost / opportunity is not already accurate between jacksons and mediums? Jacksons are only TDs unless panthers with their more than average AI power which define the cost of both units.

Jacksons vs mediums is a fair matchup with an advantage for Jackson. I don't really see the point of nerfing this advantage since USF has no other option to counter them.

USF has no other counter to medium tanks than Jacksons? What about the best, yet cheapest ATG in COH2? What about elite tripple zook Rangers? Or EZ8, 76 Sherman. Saying Jackson is the only medium tank counter USF has is laughable.

USF has no other counter to medium tanks than Jacksons? What about the best, yet cheapest ATG in COH2? What about elite tripple zook Rangers? Or EZ8, 76 Sherman. Saying Jackson is the only medium tank counter USF has is laughable.

Yep. Usf has lots of great options, none of which will ever see any use because why would they if the Jackson is the best there is and also the easiest to use with the least risk?

Don't you think the cost / opportunity is not already accurate between jacksons and mediums? Jacksons are only TDs unless panthers with their more than average AI power which define the cost of both units.

Jacksons vs mediums is a fair matchup with an advantage for Jackson. I don't really see the point of nerfing this advantage since USF has no other option to counter them.

"Fair matchup with an advantage" would be something like a 55% or 60% chance. Jackson vs Mediums is a 100% win chance, nothing less. It seems your definition of "fair matchup" is using cheat mod to spawn a p4 right behind the Jackson, and then letting the two tanks fight with no user input at all.

What you actually mean is "impossible unless the USF player was completely outplayed." I build the Jackson every single game as USF, and literally every time a solitary P4 tries a flanking dive on a single full health Jackson, the Jackson either escapes or wins. Heck, with 1 Jackson I've survived plenty of double P4 dives. (Meanwhile with SU85 or JP4 a flank almost always means certain death.)

I have, however, lost the Jackson to a medium tank dive after I got hit by dual AT guns and a flanking P4 dives the half health Jackson. I suppose that's our definition of "fair matchup with an advantage" now.

I guess King Tiger vs T34-76 is "a fair matchup with an advantage" as well. I once killed a King Tiger with a circle-strafing T34-76 after he over-committed and ran over a mine, and the IL2 strafe forced all his infantry and raketens to retreat.

USF has no other counter to medium tanks than Jacksons? What about the best, yet cheapest ATG in COH2? What about elite tripple zook Rangers? Or EZ8, 76 Sherman. Saying Jackson is the only medium tank counter USF has is laughable.

Dude seriously ? Doctrinal stuff ?

USF has no other counter to medium tanks than Jacksons? What about the best, yet cheapest ATG in COH2? What about elite tripple zook Rangers? Or EZ8, 76 Sherman. Saying Jackson is the only medium tank counter USF has is laughable.

Oh that argument?

Well then, you've just solved ALL problems with jackson range and armor! Just use elephant/jagdtiger or PaK43 and you're set, because there is a unit that outranges jackson and can't be damaged by it!
It literally erases jacksons and all of allied armor from the field(as apparently jackson does without ele/jt/pak43).

USF has no other counter to medium tanks than Jacksons? What about the best, yet cheapest ATG in COH2? What about elite tripple zook Rangers? Or EZ8, 76 Sherman. Saying Jackson is the only medium tank counter USF has is laughable.

Then why don't you use your own argument to counter Jacksons. Pgshreck, Pak40, stug, panther and so on... None of them have trouble to penetrate Jackson armor.

Anyway don't you find interesting that of all you mentioned only the ATG is stock and require a specific tier to be built. As opposed I only mentioned stock options available for Ostheer to deal with the jackson.