UKF Minor Redesign

(I made this as a mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1961083851)

I had an idea to make the UKF more dynamic and capable. There's a lot of discussion about Infantry Sections, but I don't think they're the real problem. The problem is that they're forced to do everything, even though they're specialists. Some have mentioned increasing their moving accuracy, but I think this would weaken the identity of the unit, and make them even more of a crutch. Instead, why not give Royal Engineers more to do? With their bad SMGs (and the extremely awkward cover bonus), their only use in combat is as PIAT carriers. They could be a mobile, offensive counterpart to Infantry Sections.
Also, people talk about the lack of a mobile mortar, but I think what they're really missing is smoke.

Here are the changes:

Infantry Sections:
Observation Supplies now allow a smoke barrage from HQ artillery for 25mu. Upgrade cost to 30mu from 40, barrage cost to 40 from 45. Suppression reduces flare range to 15m instead of 20.
Medical Supply ability recharge increased to 60 seconds from 45.
Vet 3 accuracy bonus reverted to 1.2x

Royal Engineers:
Cost to 240mp from 210
Spawn with rifles (in between Conscript and Volk rifles in strength)
Can be upgraded with Stens for ~30mu and a weapon slot (more powerful; the Assault Section version. Exclusive with doctrinal flamethrower)
Vet 1 Cover Combat Bonus removed, now gives .9 RA instead. Vet 2, which had not provided a combat bonus, now gives 1.2x accuracy. Vet 3 RA bonus nerfed to .734 from .66, to keep final RA the same. Vet requirements raised 10%.
Can now throw smoke grenades (requires grenade tech, Recovery Engineers get WP grenades instead)

Vickers:
Vet 1 now increases burst length by 20% instead of giving sight+range in buildings.

UC:
WASP now restores armor to 7.

Cromwell:
Near AoE distance set to .5 from .25.

Tech:
Grenade tech cost to 15fu from 10.
Platoon Command Post cost to 150mp/20fu from 180/30.
Company Command Post cost to 200mp/110fu from 280/115. Now has 2 medics.
Total tech cost is now 710mp/240fu from 820/250.

And possibly the most radical change: combine Bolster, AEC, and Bofors tech. New cost is 250mp/45fu. This delays all 3 techs a bit. Players can choose between early tanks or improved infantry and light vehicle play. NOTE: this change is not present in the test mod.

In Summary: smoke is more common, Medical Supplies are less necessary, tech is cheaper overall, and REs can fight now.

Thanks for reading! Thoughts?

I though better give AEC some anti infantry damage,increase AOE or add some ability
Agree for combine AEC and bofos upgrade,but maybe no need increase Fuel cost

I really like the idea of REs having rifles stock and upgrading into better (for assault purposes) SMGs.

Cheap 5 man unit able to carry 3 LMG+2 rifles or 4 smgs and flamer and smoke and At grenades, what can possibly go wrong?

Imo you should have a look at heavy sapper upgrade...maybe simply provide repair speed bonuses while being cheaper

Is smoke grenade the new vet 1 ability?

Cheap 5 man unit able to carry 3 LMG+2 rifles or 4 smgs and flamer and smoke and At grenades, what can possibly go wrong?

Imo you should have a look at heavy sapper upgrade...maybe simply provide repair speed bonuses while being cheaper

Is smoke grenade the new vet 1 ability?

Good points, as usual! I updated the top post.

I would argue that the rifles add very little DPS to the 3 LMG setup, and the munitions cost is so absurd that nobody would go for the option. I mean, they don't now, right? I'd be ok with it taking up a weapon slot, though.

The SMGs and flamers should be mutually exclusive.

And I forgot that the cover bonus was from vet 1... I'd move some of the big vet 3 RA bonus to 1. Vet 2 is also pretty weak, so it could gain an accuracy bonus.

Command post shouldnt give medics, UKF already has tommie squads and forward retreat point for medics, another would be unneeded.

UKF need mobile indirect not just smoke, you cant smoke a mortar to stop it firing and fuck spending muni every 5 mins to smoke out an MG!

Plus the unlock all is far too cheap, even cheaper than going for bolster and AEC tech in current game...

I'd suggest looking at the vickers too, its ability to pin a squad is non existent and all its vet is mainly tied to buildings which... indirect makes an MG in buildings useless.

roll back the tommy and put bolster upgrade in company command post

roll back the tommy and put bolster upgrade in company command post

Blister needs some balance considerations aside from timing. Whoda though that a one time upgrade that grants 25%more dps, health and targets as well as slows dps fall off ontop of also being able to throw double weapon upgrades om em would been so problematic to fond the right balance? Nobody. Literally NOBODY it seems....

It's a power spike that is so monementous that the unit either needs to be hot garbage (like now) without to be viable after the upgrade or viable before and broken beyond belief after like previously.

Whoda though that a one time upgrade that grants 25%more dps, health and targets as well as slows dps fall off ontop of also being able to throw double weapon upgrades om em would been so problematic to fond the right balance? Nobody. Literally NOBODY it seems....

PFuzies say hi

If royal engineer be given rifle, i suggest put them in T1 and make them stating unit. Event with 240mp cost, they will increase early capping power and field present significantly.

Universal carrier then can sit at platoon cp, with the new tech cost of platoon is 25 fuels, it can be tech right away as stating fuel is already 25.

Platoon cp should be split, fist haft is 25 fuels unlock UC, sniper and AT nade. Second haft is 5 fuels, unlock AT and mortar emplacement.

PFuzies say hi

Fussies don't have a 0.8target size nor access to weapon racks and are ALSO a doctrinal option locking out other abilities/units.
5 man grens are also not a problem because they lock out other options
Even the slightly over performing 7man cons lock their only weapon slot
AND all the above options are a per squad bases, not global and also only effect the unit that 1 off upgrade is applied to, not every single stock squad thereafter.

People complaining about the lack of a mobile mortar because they play team games.

Absolutely no one builds mortars right now in 1v1. Howi and ISG yes, there are plenty of those. However Mortars are a liability so I would agree with OP that there is no real need for a mortar.

If mortar was really the problem then Lend Lease and Tatical support would have fixed a lot of things.

Guess what though, no one in top level Brits use lend Lease. In the top 100 games i've played and watched, I think Advanced Emplacements was picked more than Lend Lease. Tatical support sees a fair amount of play in team games cause of the other things like Croc, call in airplanes, and ofc almost free AT guns.

I like what's here. Although I do have a probhlem with tech. I suggest making it so that you have to get Bolster Tech before T3. T2> into T3 > into Cromwell is 130 fuel. it means the Cromwell Rush, which the cromwell will hit at around 11 minute, will be around a 10 minute cromwell almost competitive with light vehicles.

Before you say that's an unrealistic strat, I've observed this particular build order used by Kobal (I think he's around rank 30 brits atm) I've been using his BO and it works suprisingly well.

I doubt the 4 man Balance team will consider reworking Brits which makes me sad cause this is a really good idea.

Fussies don't have a 0.8target size nor access to weapon racks and are ALSO a doctrinal option locking out other abilities/units.
5 man grens are also not a problem because they lock out other options
Even the slightly over performing 7man cons lock their only weapon slot
AND all the above options are a per squad bases, not global and also only effect the unit that 1 off upgrade is applied to, not every single stock squad thereafter.

Eventually people are going to have to admit weapon racks were a bad idea tbh

Good points, as usual! I updated the top post.

I would argue that the rifles add very little DPS to the 3 LMG setup, and the munitions cost is so absurd that nobody would go for the option. I mean, they don't now, right? I'd be ok with it taking up a weapon slot, though.

The SMGs and flamers should be mutually exclusive.

And I forgot that the cover bonus was from vet 1... I'd move some of the big vet 3 RA bonus to 1. Vet 2 is also pretty weak, so it could gain an accuracy bonus.

Thank you for your kind words.

Some comment:
Veterancy bonuses

1) UKF unit get lower veterancy bonuses the same way Soviet unit get higher veterancy bonuses by faction design. Most UKF unit would start strong and scale worse so one should be careful when tinkering with veterancy bonuses.

2) Pyro smoke is good but I would take it a bit further giving Section the scoped Enfield redesigning to be good long long weaker close range taking at least 1 weapon slot and removing the cover mechanism.

3) Bolster in its current form is problematic since it makes the price of IS hard to balance, 270 is to high for 4 men and low for 5. Simply redesign the tech to increase the entity number by one but having to by the extra model individually similar to Ostheer/Soviet. Price for IS could go down to 260. Upgrade could even take up 1 weapon slot making easier to balance the units and weapons

4) Ro.E. at 240 could become 5 men by default or could have price stay at 210 but get the extra entity via reinforce as suggested for IS. Rifles are on Ro.E are good.

Heavy sapper upgrade split into 2 paths one providing no weapon but increase repair speed the other turning sapper into a CQC unit (or even providing flamers) but having repair penalties.
Vickers K removed.


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5) AT Tommies now come with 5 men price down to 280 now have different vet bonuses better suited for an At infatry.

Boys accuracy rifles ready time reduced, now have lower accuracy but can "hit the ground" as timed ability and their accuracy vs infatry goes up.

6) UC WASP upgrade price down 30-50 but DOT move to a timed ability costing munition no longer get engine damage from Faust.

7) Weapon drops from m3 should simply be removed, Vickers K could become an upgrade available only to 4 men squads.

My suggestion make the redesign bigger already, so I will not even go into Hammer/Anvil choice for every building...

Fussies don't have a 0.8target size nor access to weapon racks and are ALSO a doctrinal option locking out other abilities/units.
5 man grens are also not a problem because they lock out other options
Even the slightly over performing 7man cons lock their only weapon slot
AND all the above options are a per squad bases, not global and also only effect the unit that 1 off upgrade is applied to, not every single stock squad thereafter.

Not but they have fausts, flares and nades along with additional man and G43's for... No additional cost but muni, they dont pay fuel or man power, just muni. It's not really sensible to argue about them being doctrinal to OKW when they are in the most used commander and at this point are pretty stock from the games I play.

5 men sappers still get ruined by everything as they are far too squishy without anvil and thats another upgrade but locks out the comet which is superior to the churchill this patch.

Why do people give excuses about things being doctrinal and therfore are allowed a pass when saying that one thing is OP because and the other thing isnt because? This, isn't fine *ahem*:

Whoda though that a one time upgrade that grants 25%more dps, health and targets as well as slows dps fall off ontop of also being able to throw double weapon upgrades om em would been so problematic to fond the right balance? Nobody. Literally NOBODY it seems....

But this is?:
Whoda though that a muni upgrade that grants 25%more dps, health and targets as well as slows dps fall off ontop of also being able to unlock fausts without tech, flares, nades and weapon upgrades om em would been so problematic to fond the right balance? Nobody. Literally NOBODY it seems....

You either think adding an additional man in broken or dont, pick one.

Not but they have fausts, ...

They do not have faust...they have AT grenades...

with additional man and G43's for... No additional cost but muni,

Actually the extra entity comes at reinforcement cost making the price of the unit 295MP and 80 MU which higher than all mainline infatry...

Since this thread is about a MOD can you we stop drifting?

Not but they have fausts, flares and nades along with additional man and G43's for... No additional cost but muni, they dont pay fuel or man power, just muni. It's not really sensible to argue about them being doctrinal to OKW when they are in the most used commander and at this point are pretty stock from the games I play.

5 men sappers still get ruined by everything as they are far too squishy without anvil and thats another upgrade but locks out the comet which is superior to the churchill this patch.

Why do people give excuses about things being doctrinal and therfore are allowed a pass when saying that one thing is OP because and the other thing isnt because? This, isn't fine *ahem*:



But this is?:
Whoda though that a muni upgrade that grants 25%more dps, health and targets as well as slows dps fall off ontop of also being able to unlock fausts without tech, flares, nades and weapon upgrades om em would been so problematic to fond the right balance? Nobody. Literally NOBODY it seems....

You either think adding an additional man in broken or dont, pick one.

I'm on mobile so you'll have to forgive the formatting, but the long and short is you are wrong.
Fussies extra man is a trade off upgrade. It's extra man and more dps is at the cost of other options (as is selecting the unit in the first place) the fact that their commander is over performing and thus a heavy pick already is irrelevant.
5man sappers are still 210mp for a 5 man squad with a 0.9 target size that can use weapon racks, have a snare, repair 25% faster after upgrade and also get cheaper to reinforce with vet. They are not great combat troops but you will be hard pressed to find a 210mo squad that is...and even then they can have 2 (or 3if you go anvil) mgs or 2 piats AND have a snare... Exceptional value for 10mp more than pioneers.

Doctrinal means choice. Doctrinal is in part offset by being restricted.
If you had 2 identical okw factions only 1 had the KT stock as it is now and the other had it taking up a slot in a commander like other hea y tanks, but no other changes, which okw would be people pick do you think? The one where they will ALWAYS have the option and effectively 6 commander slots, or the one with less shit?


Anyways you are not actually reading WHY I say the brit 5th man is a problem and just focusing mindlessly on "b-b-b-but other guys can do it too!"
As I said in my original, either Tommies suck ass like they do now so they are not op with 5 man or they work as 4 men and become broken with the upgrade.
Secondly, there is no reason not to get the upgrade as soon as you can reasonably afford it since ALL of your stock infantry will then be 25% better
Thirdly, there is no drawback so the only balancing factors are timing and cost which is very rigid and CLEARLY hit or miss.
Fourthly, other factors are not taken into account, like weapon racks, or scavenged weapons, which when combined with Tommies already decent durability makes for a very powerful squad as lmgs centralize dps. Centralized dps is used to offset squishy squads. Once the squad stops being squishy this centralized dps becomes problematic (this is why other squads who can bolster lose or have restricted access to that ability. The result of THAT is that brens have been gutted so they are only viable as a pair.

An ability can be broken because of the many many other factors that it effects. Blitz as well as the armour bonuses Ost gets used to be the same on the panther and the p4. Just because it was fine on one doesn't mean it was fine on the other. Spotting scopes are less effective on the 222. If it's fine on everything else why isn't it fine on the 222? Ostroppen use a weaker lmg42 than grens, why is the dps fine on one squad ond not on an entirely different one?

Well it's because there are multiple factors in play....

Brits need an extra infantry unit or upgrade option to fill the cqb role. Not just for balance sake, but because only having two infantry options is boring as hell.

Balance wise UKF really get bullied hard by StG or g43 units on cqb maps. On open maps you stand a chance vs okw with superior MG and sniper play.

But on cqb maps it's not unusual to see top 20 brit players losing to total noobs because the state Tommies and RE are in now. Some minor buffs to four man Tommies so they stand a chance before five man would also be welcome.

IMO create a pgren/penal hybrid with airofficer or even sniper skins, give them Thompsons with a unique weapon profile for medium and cqb. Lock out weapon pick ups. This has been suggested on the forums by others for years but now the balance team have the freedom I think they should go for it.

the long and short is you are wrong.

TLDR

UKF needs a major redesign. They lack a lot of critical items non-doctrinally.
-Base medics
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-Mobile Mortar
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-Any sort of late game indirect fire
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-An effective light vehicle to engage infantry
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-An effective way to deal with CQB infantry on maps that they can excel in.
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Here are some ways these problems can be solved.
T1 Rework
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Infantry Section Rework

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