The Great OKW commander balancing

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 19:39 PMVipper

Then simply revert or partially revert the Heavy tank changes its the "safest" change...

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 19:39 PMVipper

According to Sander93's calculations:

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:03 PMSander93

I personally think that even if the current situation isn't ideal, it's better than the heavy tank stalling meta that we've had over the last year.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:24 PMLago

Oh, definitely. The current system is an enormous improvement over what came before it.

A potentially novel solution:

The T-34's Ram ability has a mechanic where, if the target already has Engine Damage, it inflicts Engine Destroyed.

What if we extend this mechanic to normal snares? If you snare a vehicle that's already Engine Damaged, you inflict Engine Destroyed. (or a less extreme crit like Engine Overheated or Crew Shock).

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:03 PMSander93

I personally think that even if the current situation isn't ideal, it's better than the heavy tank stalling meta that we've had over the last year. Particularly because heavy tank stalling allowed players who were (way) behind to have comebacks with techless call-ins, while the current heavy tank rush meta at least requires a good early and mid game performance to pull off. In addition to that I also believe (and hope) that some additional small adjustments to timing and performance will swing the current heavy tank meta in more of a healthier spot, without needing to radically change or revert anything.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:33 PMSkysTheLimit

Engine destroy for ramming a snared tank makes sense, but just throwing another snare at it shouldn't be the same. I think having to sacrifice a tank should get you more than throwing another at grenade/faust

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:53 PMVipper

Heavy tank stalling went out the window with introducing tech cost...CP change and AOE buffs is what creates the issues.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:59 PMLago

...
Did you miss the World Championship?

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:03 PMVipper

If the CP remained the same and only tech requirement where introduced Super heavy stalling would not be viable so I am not sure if you understood my post.

It is the changes in CP and the new AOE profiles that have created the "super heavy meta" which is different from "super heavy" stalling.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 12:11 PMSander93

That doesn't make sense. The Tiger I is a lategame unit that relies on good early and mid game performance to even arrive because it costs so much to call in. What do the early game adjustments have to do with that? It's not a crutch unit for OKW, it's a crutch unit for facing the IS-2 as it's the only reliable counter. And OKW's Tiger I is preferred over Ostheer's one because OKW with its Puma is more reliable against light vehicles.

The WCS stats do seem to support this (although not definitively so of course, because of very low sample size) as Grand Offensive was picked in 66% of games against Soviets and only in 36% of games against USF. So players apparently do not feel like the Tiger I is the only option for OKW, just that it's the only good option to face the IS-2. The Tiger I is a very good unit, but not "OKW's only crutch".

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:05 PMLago

Heavy stalling probably wouldn't be a thing if they'd stayed at CP13.

But as we've never had tech tying with the classic CP caps, it's all hypothetical.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:47 PMVipper

Heavy stalling translates into "stockpiling" fuel instead of investing it in tech so that one can call in Super heavies a soon as they become available and replaced them. If one has to spend that fuel on tech one can not "stockpile" that fuel.

There is nothing hypothetical here and I guess we both agree that "heavy stalling" went out the window as soon as Super heavies go tied to tech.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:57 PMLago

Stalling for a heavy is waiting until you've got the resources for one instead of building something else.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:57 PMLago

Go play semantics elsewhere.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:24 PMLago

Oh, definitely. The current system is an enormous improvement over what came before it.

A potentially novel solution:

The T-34's Ram ability has a mechanic where, if the target already has Engine Damage, it inflicts Engine Destroyed.

What if we extend this mechanic to normal snares? If you snare a vehicle that's already Engine Damaged, you inflict Engine Destroyed. (or a less extreme crit like Engine Overheated or Crew Shock).

That'd add a significant weakness to overreliance on a single vehicle: a planned ambush or infantry flank can mobility kill it, allowing you to fight it with anti-tank guns.

It'd also really help Ost in early-mid against lights.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:53 PMVipper

Heavy tank stalling went out the window with introducing tech cost...CP change and AOE buffs is what creates the issues.

Jump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 00:51 AMVipper

The moment Super heavy tank got a tech cost the strategy no longer exits.

Jump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 04:16 AMSkysTheLimit

It "doesn't exist" because it became an even stronger tactic than it was before. Now you have to wait even less time than you did. I don't know what you're clarifying here

Jump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 03:33 AMmrgame2

The AOE buffs help Tiger/Axis most.
Affording a Tiger before a P4, helps Axis stay in the games better.
Reverting AOE makes Axis suffer more

I think the issues being mid-late games, Axis do struggle dealing with Allies infantry supported by 60Td.

Anyway, it is either rush a P4 and call in a heavy later
Or stall for Tiger and supplement with P4 later.

I dont think it is that bad?

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:40 PMT.R. Stormjäger

The problem isn’t even the IS2. Say your opponent goes Guard motor and has mark target, double T34/85s, a SU85, two maxims, a Guards squad and 4 7man Cons behind thicc sandbags. Good luck attacking this with a Sturmpioneer, 4 Volks, a couple P4s and maybe an Obers squad.

Soviet late game economy is too good.

Jump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 10:22 AMRaviloli

Gasp, how dare an opponent have nearly twice the manpower invested in troops as well as be on the defensive and have good odds against my übermensch?! Heresy!

Jump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 10:10 AMVipper

The problem is that now the best strategy is to get a heavy tank narrowing the number of commanders used.

It more a diversity issue than balance issue. Either this vehicles become stock or they should become less attractive.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:40 PMT.R. Stormjäger

The problem isn’t even the IS2. Say your opponent goes Guard motor and has mark target, double T34/85s, a SU85, two maxims, a Guards squad and 4 7man Cons behind thicc sandbags. Good luck attacking this with a Sturmpioneer, 4 Volks, a couple P4s and maybe an Obers squad.

Soviet late game economy is too good.