State of the Soviets

I'm stating the obvious, and I don't see 100 games.
Our game today is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with the debate, your smug attitude reveals pretty much what I say is true and you have near no experience with soviets.


It's really just another soviet OP whining circus.
If it's not, just show me where in the whole thread you're "stating" objective facts about the faction and not "this op please nerf"...

If you try to derail a perfectly constructive thread with your toxic attitude, expect to get toxic attitude back.

I don't know if you read this thread (I presume you didn't), but considering most seemed to agree with me in one way or the other, it's clearly not a "Op whining circus."

Sorry if you feel I'm derailing the thread, I was expecting to read intelligent facts about their current state but I got in and just read IS2 op, Cons op, T70 op, this op this op...

At least title it correctly and say straight out that you think soviets are op, and not write pages while tossin in a "they are overtuned" in the middle.

Then comes the T70, which is by far the biggest power spike in the game.

God forbid soviets have any decisive tool, the t70 is OP! just make it not kill my infantry for christ sake.

while barely bleeding MP due to the reinforcement costs.

Again, I read this a lot, but a simple math shows that Soviets have the most expensive reinforcing costs in the game.
Ever thought of doing the sum of what it costs to reinforce a single cons squad compared to grens before saying just plain wrong stuff like how reinforcing cons is cheap and they never bleed mp?


Better yet, I propose that you play 1v1 as soviets for some time, and then come back here and let's see if you feel the same way.
I'm not saying this to provoke you, I'm honestly telling you that you might change your opinion if you see for yourself.

Do Soviets have features that need a nerf? Sure they do, but it's certainly not the t70 (again)...

I would like to see a nerf to the soviet clown car . It just comes out way too early.

The only option for a wehr player is to go grenadiers for snare literally no other tactic is possible as you will take heavy loses trying to rush out tier 2 or go a panzer gren build with no grens.

Why not just revisit giving cons an actual weapon upgrade and dropping the mobilized reserves?

But why? It doesn't fit with the faction nor the design of the unit. The mobilized reserves does both, it just needs further refinement. I'd go as far as saying drop the combat buff entirely--they are getting an extra rifle and a bunch of other boons that really reinforce their job of being numerous bodies.
They are supposed to be quantity not quality. They are supposed to help other units last and shine not capture glory for themselves. They are supposed to be the backbone of their army, not via their teeth but with their blood. I'd much sooner keep the spirit of the unit and have some diversity left in the game than have yet another "kinda utility unit but also an effecient fighter" more diverse roles only do the game good. Not everything as to be centralized dps power creep units.

But why? It doesn't fit with the faction nor the design of the unit.

That's what I said before they gave them a 7th unit, but apparently everybody thought it was a good idea during the testing phase.
And now everybody thinks a 7th model is too much, I don't know why they let you test the balance patch.

There are a lot of stuff that don't fit in with the original design right now, I don't think it bothers them...

I would like to see a nerf to the soviet clown car . It just comes out way too early.

The only option for a wehr player is to go grenadiers for snare literally no other tactic is possible as you will take heavy loses trying to rush out tier 2 or go a panzer gren build with no grens.

Did you know 15 fuel clown car is more fragile than a 5 fuel IR HT?
Also as OST you get what you make. You risk your men by skipping t1. I think it should be like this and nothing else.

Farlion i get an error trying to reply. ill do it like this.

I never said cons should do that, and they cant either. one unit less to worry about one shotting grens and pgrens and pios,s etc.

But this thread is mostly about the 7th man of cons. like is said the total recource package to get cons at their peak preformance is higher then volks and grens. So how are they not meant to outpreform them both?
people say cons get a 20% dps increase behind green cover. how much damage increase do other main lines get after ai upgrades i wonder. i am not the most adept at the numbers but i am curious if it is simaler to the 20% of cons wich is tied to green cover.

Penals are strong but not capable wiping full health squads in mere seconds. The are not grens or Pgrens or Falls or Ober or Sections or Rifleman who all have grenades with short timers next to powerfull ai upgrades. If penals wipe a squad with the ages long timer on the satchel it is fault on the recieving player.

ost is not soley dependend on the mg42 to be viable. they are just more reliant on their support weapons until armour hits the field. if they where why would they even build grens snipers etc.

all factions that have good grenades on their inf are capable at wiping very early on. soviets need doctrines to do the same or wait for t70 etc. okw need docs as well or wait for obers.

you missed the part where i said the KT is non doc. that is the biggest reason. vs OKW you can always expect it. the IS2 is in very few doctrines so there is a fairly low chance to excpect it.
you dont balance a faction on doctrines of the opposing factions.

That's not how the game works at all. Doctrines aren't assigned to players randomly. Just because it's in 2 out of 20 doctrines doesn't automatically make it a 10% chance. IS2 is in two excellent and meta doctrines, and features in at least 60% to 70% of 1v1 matchups.

The non-doc KT that Allied-only players keep complaining about - that hardly ever shows up. Less than 5% of 1v1 games at best feature a KT.

Note that the thread is about 1v1 and 2v2.

All I see as arguments are “LTP” and “it’s OP because the factions aren’t symmetrical” or it’s UP because the factions aren’t symmetrical”

Tell us what role you intend for the unit, tell us how the change you propose makes the unit fulfill that role, and explain why the unit needs to fill that role, and why that role needs filling. Please.

Wehr doesn't have an answer to everything at every stage of the game?

Im sure most will say no.

Besides wehr units power levels are mostly poorer and/or cost ineffective today

Their wait till late game comeback mechanics rekt just as how sov rekt them in competitive plays for some time. Im been a proponent of sov best faction for some time.

Wc19 is just tip of ice berg showing the cracks that even top players cant cover up

Couldn't read all of the above posts, so sorry if some points have already been covered extensively. My take on the issue:

Previously, SOV was very bland since the only viable build was T1 Penals into T70. This was because 1. Conscripts were only mediocre and hard to replace in the late game and 2. The Maxim in T2 lacks a lot of firepower. So the best bet was to try to survive the vehicle game until you get a T70. To make Conscripts more viable, balance team introduced a late game upgrade - Mobilized Reserves. That was basically the only major SOV specific change (apart from IS2, which was part of an overall heavy overhaul).

I think we should look at IS2 and Conscript problem as two different things. The easiest solution would be to tone down the late game buff of mobilized reserves. Conscripts have not become better during early game, but are the main reason why SOV is hard to bleed in the late game. Just up the MP cost a little bit or reduce the DPS boost in cover so that they are less efficient.

I thought this way too.

Imo cons were never mediocre before, just underused under explored. The 7 man buff incentivised player to try cons and discovered they are pretty solid and hold their own when play to their strengths.

Cos t70 was not touched and 7man comes late. So what filled the gap was simply cons are never mediocre.

I made an old whiner topic about new 7cons vet needs tone down, so thankfully post wc19 findings tally with me.

As for is2, similarly i felt Wehr/axis lack pen and the nerf to axis armor values now puts allies armour ahead in hth. Good now we can consider this too with pro results analysis

Soviets are fine, maybe T1 and maxims need changes to become viable, it’s okw and ostheer that need tostop crutching on heavies and improve. Same with UKF.

Fix heavies (more CP and more expensive) and soviets will be fine.

I thought this way too.

Imo cons were never mediocre before, just underused under explored. The 7 man buff incentivised player to try cons and discovered they are pretty solid and hold their own when play to their strengths.

Cos t70 was not touched and 7man comes late. So what filled the gap was simply cons are never mediocre.

I made an old whiner topic about new 7cons vet needs tone down, so thankfully post wc19 findings tally with me.

As for is2, similarly i felt Wehr/axis lack pen and the nerf to axis armor values now puts allies armour ahead in hth. Good now we can consider this too with pro results analysis

I disagree entirely. Cons issue was always okw and scaling late game. Previously they were out fought and out numbered the entire game. Cons became dead weight late game regardless though because all units were gaining durability and a small accuracy buff, but all other units were ALSO getting increased firepower via weapon upgrades. That's what made cons fall flat. Their early game vs okw was tuned and their general late game performance was improved via 7 man upgrade. They are viable now because they can function in the late game.

Another huge problem with the old cons was all their performance was stacked entirely in vet, meaning if you lost a squad you then had to start from scratch with a low impact unit fighting weapon upgrades and vet. Other units at least were able to purchase weapons to bridge the gap of lost vet to a degree.

I think you are underestimating how dramatic the 7th man change was for conscripts and how it allows them to actually be competitive in the late game now. They could coast to mid game and then fell off making them unattractive, now that there is a mitigating factor to help them traverse the late game they are actually worth using in the early and mid.

I don't see anything contrary to my views. You can't stall till late games if cons are so bad. Especially against top players.

Tell me about losing vet squads, this is the pain i spoke before about wehr 2v2 pov. Besides easier to get wiped 4man squad. Lmg grens are pretty much rekt against vet allies. So do pgrens. At least sov get strong callin infantry and you just need a cheap lone cons to provide utility in such loss scenario.

Of cos right now sov late game consists of 7man durability behind cover with utility, heavy armor to push and take hits, while cheaper 60td to snipe consistently and/or cheaper 76 to throw and disrupt.

The costs of axis units simply cant catch up.

Sov is good case of power creep, retaining strengths while upping their intended weakness

soviets are favoured atm simply due to how bad british forces are.. at least thats the reason why i stopped playing with brits... and no, i never blobbed sections - although constantly struggling against blobs, funny how that doesn't appear to be an issue when it's the axis factions

usf is viable but a little micro intensive and easily countered in team games with axis' non-dec, far superior, rocket arty... it's funny reading comments about nerfin the katy when it's far less effective, no where near as good considering that the axis equivalent drops it's entire payload without pause

as for the is2 i think it's a little underwhelming for a doc heavy, easily pen'd by cheap TDs and not reliable pen against axis heavies, considering how weak the su76 and t34s and how strong axis armour is it's hard to see how this faction is op late game.. can you imagine how useless this faction would be if say for eg the vulnerable su85 was nerfed

if you want to address the soviet favouritism then make british great again, or at least viable.. soviets are competitive but hardly op

I don't see anything contrary to my views. You can't stall till late games if cons are so bad. Especially against top players.

Tell me about losing vet squads, this is the pain i spoke before about wehr 2v2 pov. Besides easier to get wiped 4man squad. Lmg grens are pretty much rekt against vet allies. So do pgrens. At least sov get strong callin infantry and you just need a cheap lone cons to provide utility in such loss scenario.

Of cos right now sov late game consists of 7man durability behind cover with utility, heavy armor to push and take hits, while cheaper 60td to snipe consistently and/or cheaper 76 to throw and disrupt.

The costs of axis units simply cant catch up.

Sov is good case of power creep, retaining strengths while upping their intended weakness

You are completely missing the point. Cons are viable now because they work at all stages of the game. Before, going cons meant you would be stuck with infantry that couldn't do anything late game. They were a meme and people joked their only purpose was being a snare. Infantry of all things needs to work at all stages of the game and cons failed to work properly late game.

Losing vet definitely hurts all factions, but all factions are able to mitigate that with munitions. Previously cons could not. Previously when you placed a con squad you had exactly the same unit you built at the start of the game. Replacing a gren squad and slapping an lmg42 on it makes it easier to regain that vet due to increased dps and centralized dps meaning even dropping models when not vetted didn't hurt quite as much. It would be like if all tanks but one had the ability to pay to increase reload and health. That one wouldn't cut it facing other tanks that have vet and enhanced stats via the upgrade.

Yes combined arms is strong.... That's intended... Let's bring other factions up to that level!
As for the over achieving strengths, they need to be decreased. We're on the same page there. Crutch units are bad design and every unit should be viable. I've been advocating for that for years...

Some would say grens fall off late games and their faust is a meme too. I would add mg42 a big victim of late game fall off.

Vet Cons before 7man still contribute late game, just less people tried it, tried to vet them. But we dont expect them to go from start to end.
Its the same thing as vet 222,bren,aec,t70 even p4 v 60td. Early units window gets smaller as the match goes. Contributions get more utility less game winning

Now with 7man, they become too good for costs and out last early stock infantry.

Imo only usf and ukf we expect their stock infantry to scale early to late games. By their faction designs

Couldn't read all of the above posts, so sorry if some points have already been covered extensively. My take on the issue:

Previously, SOV was very bland since the only viable build was T1 Penals into T70. This was because 1. Conscripts were only mediocre and hard to replace in the late game and 2. The Maxim in T2 lacks a lot of firepower. So the best bet was to try to survive the vehicle game until you get a T70. To make Conscripts more viable, balance team introduced a late game upgrade - Mobilized Reserves. That was basically the only major SOV specific change (apart from IS2, which was part of an overall heavy overhaul).

I think we should look at IS2 and Conscript problem as two different things. The easiest solution would be to tone down the late game buff of mobilized reserves. Conscripts have not become better during early game, but are the main reason why SOV is hard to bleed in the late game. Just up the MP cost a little bit or reduce the DPS boost in cover so that they are less efficient.

this is probably the most sensible post so far in this thread. Subtle changes to these two units will be everything needed to bring sov back in line

You are completely missing the point. Cons are viable now because they work at all stages of the game. Before, going cons meant you would be stuck with infantry that couldn't do anything late game. They were a meme and people joked their only purpose was being a snare. Infantry of all things needs to work at all stages of the game and cons failed to work properly late game.

Losing vet definitely hurts all factions, but all factions are able to mitigate that with munitions. Previously cons could not. Previously when you placed a con squad you had exactly the same unit you built at the start of the game. Replacing a gren squad and slapping an lmg42 on it makes it easier to regain that vet due to increased dps and centralized dps meaning even dropping models when not vetted didn't hurt quite as much. It would be like if all tanks but one had the ability to pay to increase reload and health. That one wouldn't cut it facing other tanks that have vet and enhanced stats via the upgrade.

Yes combined arms is strong.... That's intended... Let's bring other factions up to that level!
As for the over achieving strengths, they need to be decreased. We're on the same page there. Crutch units are bad design and every unit should be viable. I've been advocating for that for years...

It's also part of meme that cons are "utility, support unit, not mainline infantry" and when you build T2, you build support weapon to support your support units (while your support infantry supporting your support weapon). Cruel loop of supporting...
I never, never saw in any competitive game 1vs1, 2vs2 that someone ever used penals + cons. You need make unique upgrades for cons, to get their utility, while if you will go in such build you also need T1 and expensive penals as mainline.
Only viable way use cons as support was guards+cons (merge don't have any sense for shocks, only in very desperate situations). But now with 7-th man, you at least have option to play through cons as mainline infantry, not sprinting snare squad. Who need MP bleeding squad which couldn't hold the ground against enemy infantry? Don't forget about joke that called maxim and we are realized why cons were so broken until got upgrade.
If someone want debuff cons, OK. But make maxim viable as every other HMG in-game. That you could play through support weapon+cons.