State of the Soviets

nerf 7 man conscript reinforce cost (17mp->20mp)

nerf shock troop (6 man -> 5 man, cost 360mp -> 340mp)

nerf Is-2 cost (640/230 -> 680/240)

T-70 need no change

Or you could learn to play.

Or you could learn to play.

Why learn to play when he can just blame balance?

Odd statement, to be frank. Scaling because of utility is exactly how all light vehicles should have been designed, so they are still useful in the late game when they can't fight effectively anymore. The utility scaling of the T70 is great, and other light vehicles should've been designed like it (Puma and AEC are to some extend, with handy disable abilities to help fight enemy tanks). Not the other way around. Players should be rewarded for keeping their light vehicles alive, instead of being encouraged to send them off to die because they just take up popcap.

That's fine if that's the intention, and I'd prefer if this was the case. However, as it is in-game, most LVs simply don't provide utility to anywhere near the degree the T70 does by late game.

The 222's gets 65 LOS at vet 3 and 'Infantry Awareness' at vet 1. Note that 'Infantry Awareness' has 65 range, meaning it's only useful before vet 3, or for detecting past LOS-Blockers. It also costs muni, is a timed ability, and only shows units on the mini-map.

The Luch gets cloaking at Vet 1 and suppressing fire at Vet 5. Cloaking can be detected by infantry at 20 range, and by 'detector' units at 25 range. Vet 5 is also very rare to reach.

The Puma gains the 'Aimed Shot' Ability at Vet 1.

The M5A1 gets 60 LOS at vet 3.

The AEC gets Target Tread at vet 1.

The T70 gets 45 LOS at vet 3, 70 if in Recon mode, and can capture points.


I'd say the T70 is easily in the lead here, considering the important of LOS in late-game; and this is in addition to it being arguably the strongest LV in the game, so it's also providing combat power even against late-game infantry (unlike 222). Meanwhile the 222, Luchs and M5A1 are nearly useless in late-game, even with vet.

That's fine if that's the intention, and I'd prefer if this was the case. However, as it is in-game, most LVs simply don't provide utility to anywhere near the degree the T70 does by late game.

The 222's gets 65 LOS at vet 3 and 'Infantry Awareness' at vet 1. Note that 'Infantry Awareness' has 65 range, meaning it's only useful before vet 3, or for detecting past LOS-Blockers. It also costs muni, is a timed ability, and only shows units on the mini-map.

The Luch gets cloaking at Vet 1 and suppressing fire at Vet 5. Cloaking can be detected by infantry at 20 range, and by 'detector' units at 25 range. Vet 5 is also very rare to reach.

The Puma gains the 'Aimed Shot' Ability at Vet 1.

The M5A1 gets 60 LOS at vet 3.

The AEC gets Target Tread at vet 1.

The T70 gets 45 LOS at vet 3, 70 if in Recon mode, and can capture points.


I'd say the T70 is easily in the lead here, considering the important of LOS in late-game; and this is in addition to it being arguably the strongest LV in the game, so it's also providing combat power even against late-game infantry (unlike 222). Meanwhile the 222, Luchs and M5A1 are nearly useless in late-game, even with vet.

222 has AA and spotting scopes.
AEC can stun and flank anything, with smoke.
Stuart has crazy sight at vet 3 and wo abilities vs armour.
Puma can delete single man retreating squads at vet 1.

Stop complaining.

222 has AA and spotting scopes.
AEC can stun and flank anything, with smoke.
Stuart has crazy sight at vet 3 and wo abilities vs armour.
Puma can delete single man retreating squads at vet 1.

Stop complaining.

Stuart also benifit from usf crews. So even if it's risky to use the Stuart you can swap out the crew (or remove it entirely to save pop) and get a jump on vet for your medium armour.

Stuart also benifit from usf crews. So even if it's risky to use the Stuart you can swap out the crew (or remove it entirely to save pop) and get a jump on vet for your medium armour.

I just keep the vet 3 Stuart for spotting and blinding diving tanks. Works wonders imo.

Nerf 7men Consript upgrade,or this upgrade can give some buff to Penal……like reduce RA and reduce reinforcement cost……

222 has AA and spotting scopes.
AEC can stun and flank anything, with smoke.
Stuart has crazy sight at vet 3 and wo abilities vs armour.
Puma can delete single man retreating squads at vet 1.

Stop complaining.

You bring doctrinal things into the arguement you open an additional can of worms that needs basically their own threads.

You bring doctrinal things into the arguement you open an additional can of worms that needs basically their own threads.

Normally I was just gonna say the 222 is shit, but come on, spotting scopes on vet 2 222 alongside an Elephant is absolutely insane.

I'd say the T70 is easily in the lead here

I understand your points, but as I've said, I think the T-70's late game utility scaling should be (should've been) the base line for all light vehicles. It rewards a player for keeping their light vehicle alive and it creates very interesting scenarios in which killing a vet 3 T-70 could be more beneficial than killing a big tank. Other light vehicles should've gotten similar powerful late game utility scalability. Although the 222 isn't bad for sight and AA, and the Puma and AEC can help turn tank engagements with turret lock and mobility stun. And the Stuart... well it can at least swap a vet 3 vehicle crew into a new tank.

If anything, the T-70s bloated anti-infantry power is its main problem (I think the Luchs is a much better design in regards of TTK, as it's powerful enough to force off squads and even wipe very late retreats, but isn't powerful enough to solo entire squads within seconds, and the T-70 should've had a more similar power level). But the Soviets kinda need the T-70 as a crutch unit, as their mid game drops off quite steeply without it. Even though I personally dislike how wipey it is.

If anything, the T-70s bloated anti-infantry power is its main problem (I think the Luchs is a much better design in regards of TTK, as it's powerful enough to force off squads and even wipe very late retreats, but isn't powerful enough to solo entire squads within seconds, and the T-70 should've had a more similar power level). But the Soviets kinda need the T-70 as a crutch unit, as their mid game drops off quite steeply without it. Even though I personally dislike how wipey it is.

I don't really understand the Luchs comparison. Luchs is locked behind 60 fuel. T70 requires 120 fuel to get if you go for Conscript upgrades.

Normally I was just gonna say the 222 is shit, but come on, spotting scopes on vet 2 222 alongside an Elephant is absolutely insane.

I agree, but I think that's more of a case of jaegar armor never being toned down and just remains the best commander in the game alongside ISU.

I understand your points, but as I've said, I think the T-70's late game utility scaling should be (should've been) the base line for all light vehicles. It rewards a player to keep their light vehicle alive and it creates very interesting scenarios in which killing a vet 3 T-70 could be more beneficial than killing a big tank. Other light vehicles should've gotten similar powerful late game utility scalability. Although the 222 isn't bad for sight and AA, and the Puma and AEC can help turn tank engagements with turret lock and mobility stun. And the Stuart... well it can at least swap a vet 3 vehicle crew into a new tank.

If anything, the T-70s bloated anti-infantry is its main problem (I think the Luchs is a much better design in regards of TTK, as it's powerful enough to force off squads and even wipe very late retreats, but isn't powerful enough to solo entire squads within seconds). But the Soviets need the T-70 as a crutch unit, as their mid game drops off quite steeply without it.

So, to summarize;

• T-70 has bloated AI power
  
• T-70 is a crutch unit, and is required so that Sov mid-game doesn't drop off steeply
  
• T-70 scales better than any other LV
  
• Vet 3 T-70 can be more beneficial than a big tank
  

and arguably

• T-70 over-performed in WCS
  
• T-70 is the strongest LV in the game
  

I don't see a lot of solutions here. If we nerf the AI power a bunch to bring it in-line with the Luchs (point 1), then sov mid-game drops off steeply (point 2). Meanwhile, at vet 3, it's bringing more power and/or utility than a much more expensive medium tank (point 3 + 4) - and it can get to vet 3 easily, because of its AI power (point 1). All of this results in it over performing, as per points 5 and 6.

We could buff other LVs to match the T70, but then we run into OKW's Luchs/Puma completely crushing USF/UKF, as well as the possible return of 444/666 - and it would also mean further power-creep, which I'm personally against. Furthermore, as we saw from WCS, OKW/OST vs. USF is close to balanced, and UKF's issues aren't from the LV matchup, so drastically reworking these units would likely cause more problems than it would fix.

Considering all those points, the only solutions I'm seeing are either reworking Sov's mid-game to not rely on the T70 (and then nerfing its AI power dramatically), or making the T70 only a temporary power-spike by making it scale much worse.

So, to summarize;

• T-70 has bloated AI power
  
• T-70 is a crutch unit, and is required so that Sov mid-game doesn't drop off steeply
  
• T-70 scales better than any other LV
  
• Vet 3 T-70 can be more beneficial than a big tank
  

and arguably

• T-70 over-performed in WCS
  
• T-70 is the strongest LV in the game
  

I don't see a lot of solutions here. If we nerf the AI power a bunch to bring it in-line with the Luchs (point 1), then sov mid-game drops off steeply (point 2). Meanwhile, at vet 3, it's bringing more power and/or utility than a much more expensive medium tank (point 3 + 4) - and it can get to vet 3 easily, because of its AI power (point 1). All of this results in it over performing, as per points 5 and 6.

We could buff other LVs to match the T70, but then we run into OKW's Luchs/Puma completely crushing USF/UKF, as well as the possible return of 444/666 - and it would also mean further power-creep, which I'm personally against. Furthermore, as we saw from WCS, OKW/OST vs. USF is close to balanced, and UKF's issues aren't from the LV matchup, so drastically reworking these units would likely cause more problems than it would fix.

Considering all those points, the only solutions I'm seeing are either reworking Sov's mid-game to not rely on the T70 (and then nerfing its AI power dramatically), or making the T70 only a temporary power-spike by making it scale much worse.

You completely ignore timings for some reason. Do you realize that the first T70 costs you almost as much as Luchs+Puma together? Or that Stuart takes 55 fuel to unluck while the T70 takes 100? Or that the AEC is locked behind only 45 fuel?

T70 is fine. You can prepare for its arrival much easier than you can prepare for 222, Flame HT, Luchs, AAHT and Stuart.

The reason why Soviets are slightly too good is the late game dominance.

I don't really understand the Luchs comparison

Regardless if teching or even unit costs, I was only comparing weapon damage profiles. The Luchs has (imo) a much healthier profile of steady but lower DPM. It takes quite a lot of time to kill healthy squads, and its damage output is more forgiving and predictable. Which is much better than the RNG cannon profile that the T-70 has that can sometimes wipe entire squads in seconds or miss ten shots in a row, but generally kills models very fast. Design wise, I think ideally light vehicles should reliably force off enemy infantry and only wipe on very late retreats (like the Luchs), rather than potentially wiping everything that's even just left the base (like the T-70). I'm not a fan of the Soviet design of early (M3 flamer) and mid game (T-70) "wipe" spikes to swing games in their favour.

Purely looking at the damage profile, I think the Luchs' is a much better design than the T-70's.

Regardless if teching or even unit costs, the Luchs has (imo) a much healthier profile of steady but lower DPM. It takes quite a lot of time to kill healthy squads, and its damage output is more forgiving and predictable. Which is much better than the RNG cannon profile that the T-70 has that can sometimes wipe entire squads in seconds or miss ten shots in a row, but generally kills models very fast.

Purely looking at the damage profile, I think the Luchs' is a much better design than the T-70's.

What about the armies? Luchs has STG volks, Spios and Obers/Falls/JLI. T70 has to carry 7man conscripts.

What about the armies? Luchs has STG volks, Spios and Obers/Falls/JLI. T70 has to carry 7man conscripts.

I'm only mentioning that I think the Luchs damage profile is a better design than the T-70's. It's just a remark on design, it didn't have anything to do with the current balance. I'd wish Relic would've given the T-70 a damage profile more like the Luchs years ago and balanced the rest of the Soviets around that, so now we wouldn't be left with the near impossible task of balancing a crutch unit. Too late now.

I would like to point out that CoH2 is a back and forth game, each side getting power spikes at different times due to different infantry upgrade, LV and heavy tech times. This, however breaks down in the late game when there is no more tech to reaserch.

I believe the different power spike times in the mid game should be kept as it creates an interesting back and forth, but factions NEED to be balanced at 100 pop cap, and this is how soviets broke

They have very shallow “troughs”(conscripts) in their power wave function and high “peaks”(t70) , and are more powerful late game than other factions.

I didn't watch the majority of the WCS games, but was there a resurgence of Su76s? I've seen a lot of them on ladder recently, and they're ok. They're not puma or AEC though.

The T70, while a frustrating unit, I believe isn't the problem, but the combination of factors that make Soviet late game so dominant, namely the 7 man conscripts and IS2.

Personally, why 7 man cons needed damage buffs when in cover is not entirely clear to me. The sole point of the unit is that it lives by its utility, not by its raw damage potential.

I didn't watch the majority of the WCS games, but was there a resurgence of Su76s? I've seen a lot of them on ladder recently, and they're ok. They're not puma or AEC though.

There wasn't because there is simply no need for them. Conscripts allow you to turtle with 2 Zis guns while you stall for the IS2.