State of the Soviets

Exactly, su76s simply have no role right now. Nerf pen and damage and give them free barrage with global cooldown and the unit will be useful again.

... I'd wish Relic would've given the T-70 a damage profile more like the Luchs years ago and balanced the rest of the Soviets around that, so now we wouldn't be left with the near impossible task of balancing a crutch unit. Too late now.

The changes the MOD team has made to the Game since they took over Relic is too drastic to blame Relic for not "giving the proper profile" to the T-70. When Relic was balancing the unit it was available in the same building with T-34/76 and Soviets where building 2 building.

In addition the T-70 is not even using the Relic's profile:

MARCH 28th UPDATE:
Show Spoiler

And if the T-70 is too good there is a simple solution, reduce its power level. Lower both performance and cost...(that goes for half the units...)

I didn't watch the majority of the WCS games, but was there a resurgence of Su76s? I've seen a lot of them on ladder recently, and they're ok. They're not puma or AEC though.

I didn't see many in the WCS games that I watched. I see them occasionally on other streams when Ost gets a lot of T3. They work well enough against that.

The reason why Soviets are slightly too good is the late game dominance.

Agreed on this, +1
What i would like to discuss is the question why factions who designed to dominate early and midgame can get heavies at the same time like late game factions? Its the ultimate snowball:
Dominate first 15, get map control, have the ressources to get your heavey tank.

usf and soviet heavies should come later than axis and brit heavies. Thats only fair and mirrors the faction design.

Agreed on this, +1
What i would like to discuss is the question why factions who designed to dominate early and midgame can get heavies at the same time like late game factions? Its the ultimate snowball:
Dominate first 15, get map control, have the ressources to get your heavey tank.

usf and soviet heavies should come later than axis and brit heavies. Thats only fair and mirrors the faction design.

I don't like this concept. Why should some factions be better at only certain points of the game? In teamgames the game can not end by VPs in the "early/mid" game. You always can hit at least 15 minutes unless you surrender. Why not make everyone decent at all points of the game? During the OKW rework in 2016 the USF "design" was to end the game before lategame OKW hit, and USF was basically trash tier because of it. When the KT hit, the game practically ended.

Not to mention that if you get the "bad side" of a map, in a bad faction matchup and you're playing an "early game" faction, don't you just lose the game? I know it's not that clear cut because faction balance is pretty good atm, but thats what I'm interpreting when I'm reading these.

imagine the t70 has a 2 man crew driver and gunner/cmd/loader ... why not lower the turret turnspeed of the t70 so if it dives it can not spin arround and shoot left and right... in this szenario it will lose a bit dps but still be a good punisher if its placed correct

Soviets should not have such a powerspike with the t70 and the last tournament showed this.

Soviets can lose an m3, lose squads, but the moment the T70 hits the game can completely fall into their favor as you risk your sturms or capping units being wiped if you even DARE sidecap the map. The closest you can get to the T70s wipepower in situations like this is ost 444. But multiple vehicles are a lot harder to keep alive than one t70 tied to a hotkey zooming around the map.

Vet 3 gives it a wipe autocanon AND great recon late game. The vet 3 really is borderline broken compared to other lvs

Nerf it and buff Maxim

Exactly, su76s simply have no role right now. Nerf pen and damage and give them free barrage with global cooldown and the unit will be useful again.

... So your idea to make the SU76 usefull is to nerf its damage and pen for no reason, and remove the option of making 2 of them at the same time? Yeah nobody is going to use a su76 if that happens.

Unlike with Ostheer, Soviets only have few doctrines with heavy tanks. So if these lategame units are too strong, nerfs should be aimed at them, not the main roster of the faction, since otherwise you will also be nerfing Soviets when they use a commander like Partisan Tactics.

My suggestion to adress the Soviet problem would be to buff the counter to allied heavies: the Panther. Nobody builds panthers, even when up against IS2s. So I would suggest to buff the Penetration of the Panther to more reliably pen the IS-2. If that is not enough, I would also decrease the Vet2 range buff that the IS-2 gets, to give the panter more room to fight the IS-2.

Soviets should not have such a powerspike with the t70 and the last tournament showed this.

Soviets can lose an m3, lose squads, but the moment the T70 hits the game can completely fall into their favor as you risk your sturms or capping units being wiped if you even DARE sidecap the map. The closest you can get to the T70s wipepower in situations like this is ost 444. But multiple vehicles are a lot harder to keep alive than one t70 tied to a hotkey zooming around the map.

Vet 3 gives it a wipe autocanon AND great recon late game. The vet 3 really is borderline broken compared to other lvs

Nerf it and buff Maxim

No maxim buff pls. In fact stop any soviet buffs until nerfs are good.

Last time people were cryin how bad cons were (they arent imo), we got OP cons today despite mainly late game buffs. Its matter of sov strengths ignored while buffing their weaknesses.

As for t70, the games i watched dont seem over bearing. Sure okw need to spend luch + puma to match t70. I dont remember it did any more wipes than others.

Imo it is sov all around units at any time, which makes them oppressive. They are also cheaper and vets really well. Gives you little window, very bad for wehr. Lacks of LV. if you go 5 man, you lose out on tiger. Panther dont cut it against is2/su85.

Hand waving to t70 is a red herring and ignore the sov meta.

That's fine if that's the intention, and I'd prefer if this was the case. However, as it is in-game, most LVs simply don't provide utility to anywhere near the degree the T70 does by late game.

The 222's gets 65 LOS at vet 3 and 'Infantry Awareness' at vet 1. Note that 'Infantry Awareness' has 65 range, meaning it's only useful before vet 3, or for detecting past LOS-Blockers. It also costs muni, is a timed ability, and only shows units on the mini-map.

The Luch gets cloaking at Vet 1 and suppressing fire at Vet 5. Cloaking can be detected by infantry at 20 range, and by 'detector' units at 25 range. Vet 5 is also very rare to reach.

The Puma gains the 'Aimed Shot' Ability at Vet 1.

The M5A1 gets 60 LOS at vet 3.

The AEC gets Target Tread at vet 1.

The T70 gets 45 LOS at vet 3, 70 if in Recon mode, and can capture points.


I'd say the T70 is easily in the lead here, considering the important of LOS in late-game; and this is in addition to it being arguably the strongest LV in the game, so it's also providing combat power even against late-game infantry (unlike 222). Meanwhile the 222, Luchs and M5A1 are nearly useless in late-game, even with vet.

You forgot about Eye of Sauron from OKW, cheap unit wich give you maphack and ability to see even cloaked units. Extremely usefull in late-game. Especially in pair with arty units. No any requirement to micro - just halt it before sightblocker.

You forgot about Eye of Sauron from OKW, cheap unit wich give you maphack and ability to see even cloaked units. Extremely usefull in late-game. Especially in pair with arty units.

If anything, that makes the late-game scaling of the Luchs/Puma even worse, since LOS is basically pointless. That said, the IRHT is a very, very broken unit (especially with the retreat bug) that never should've been in the game in the first place; at least, not in the current form (maybe convert it to true-sight?).

SU core problems by faction design:

1. Mainline infantry - cons, designed to be canon fodder and sic! support unit. As result we got penals (and in old days maxims) as mainline infantry. To beat penals spam and return T2 in game - 7-th warrior upgrade.
2. Faction design to spam "cheap" units as su-76, t-34/76. By one, units useless, but in mass created very big issues. As example su-76 spam with free barrage. Free barrage was removed and barrage CD was increased, as result dead unit as "old" ostwind. Because you ALWAYS have better choice. Or old maxim spam, as result we have faction that must fight without HMG, because it very unreliable. As result we also got +1 reason make 7-th con upgrade.
3. When OKW was arrived we got problem with stock heavy tank and got buffs to pen for su-85 (and decreased insane ROF). And also volks beated cons in every battle, that made penals spam only one choice and +1 reson for 7-th con upgrade.
4. SU mediums useless in 1vs1 tank battles, you need "combined arms" or 2-nd tank or build su-85 to counter axis superior medium.
5. Without doctrines have very weak gameplay.
6. Problem in ealry-mid game - without weapon upgrades cons couldn't fight against upgraded volks or grens, as result strong t-70. Or penal spam. Only one choice to beat that - rebalance cons to capable mainline infantry as for other factions. Make 5 man squad and ability to buy weapon and proper grenades, remove 7th-man upgrade, remove sprint and merge. We've lost faction identity, but solve problem with 7-th man, T-70,penals. T-70 get price reduce and stats reduce to be soviet version of 222. Penals to close combat squad with flamer+satchel and ppsh or with ptrs+at-satchels.
7. Much better make t-34/85 as stock unit, move t-34/76 to doctrine as cheap medium or make upgrade from 76 to 85. Move Su-85 to doctrines. We've resolve problem with 60 range-high pen-high ROF TD.
8. Make from su-76 arty support unit like scotch. Smoke barrage, regular barrage, reduced pen to be capable only against light vehicle. Need to be deployed as kv-2 to use arty.

Current state of soviets T4 created big issues for OST gameplay, if in old days you could diving with panther, now, when su-85 arrived it become very risky. But without "buffed" su-85, SU don't have stock tool against KT. AS result su-85 become "main" unit for SU in t-4. Without it you will be destroyed by superior enemy armor. Su-85 could be replaced by kv-1 to give damage spounge, that could give you time to deal with enemy armor, use mediums flanking.
T-34/85 should got AP shells ability like for m4c, low ROF, but increased pen and accuracy.

In that state, in T4 soviets got mediums that excel enemy stock mediums, but couldn't fight alone against panther and KT. Kv-1 for damage soaking. No 60 range "everything pen" TD that stop any push.

About maxims. We should avoid spamming, but create unit that work as others HMG in game and don't forget about death loop problem. In fact, in reality maxim good for defense and very bad for offense due high weight. It's weapon for static warfare as was WW1.
Increase cost, increase build time, decrease speed of unit (but speed of retreating still the same) add ability for crew build defensive position - similar to USF HMG nest (crew got the same debuff as engeneers when repairing while build it). Get defense bonus and increase arc of fire to level of mg-42, got passive buff to suppression and speed of reload.

We also need to realize the tank destroyers meta is here because soviet union has no handheld AT option. Ptrs doesn't do anything. At satchel requires 45 ammo for every satchel. Compared with other factors who can get shreks and bazookas and piats. I think this is the reason TDs are so needed for SU.
I think t70 is fine as it is. Now OST can make pz grens earlier and can place teller mines.
Okw can go for puma. T70 can not fight puma with its insane range and mobility. Even t34 becomes cautious in front of puma. We saw great puma play in the tournament because it kites so well. So i think t70 is fine. Nerfing it will hamper SU more in mid game.

Unlike with Ostheer, Soviets only have few doctrines with heavy tanks. So if these lategame units are too strong, nerfs should be aimed at them, not the main roster of the faction

Agreed and Im happy that someone mentions the commanders that indludes the IS-2:
I could certainly live better with a strong soviet heavy if the unit would be in a good doctrine with some weaknesses.Heavy Cav with Pershing is certainly strong but USF players dont have a strong offmap arty/ air attack. Same for Wehrmacht's strategic reserves or Lightning war.

Soviets in comparsion have 2 commanders with strong offmap abilities AND the IS-2(and elite infantry in Shock Rifle Frontline).
Armored Assault and Shock Rifle Frontline were "OK" in terms of balance as long as the IS-2 was not so dominant.

Thats why i would like to see some nerfs for the IS-2 (armor, cost).
Buffs for axis units would not be needed then imo.

I'm working on a stats post as well; I have some more games than the guy on reddit, so my numbers are somewhat different. I'm always a bit skeptical about drawing too many conclusions from this kind of data, in particular given the small sample size, but if you want to it actually looks like OH is the outlier, not SOV.

Checking out matchups you'll find that SOV, USF and OKW trade about reasonably even, but OH does relatively poor against both SOV and USF...

Stock suggestion for Soviet:

Reduce the Power level of M3
Decrease power level.
Lower cost to 0-5 fuel, lower DPS, passenger no longer can shoot out of the vehicle.

Available upgrades:
"Drive by" cost 30-40 munition, passengers can now shoot out of the vehicle.
Other changes:
OKW get Faust at truck build not set up, generally OKW tech unlock should come with truck built not set since time varies from truck placement.

Passenger no longer die on vehicle destroyed, they receive RNG damage and stun or suppress.

Penal
Decrease power level.
Cost down to 280 built time reduced, come with 4 mosin 2 SVT, satchel removed, PTRS removed. SVT profile changed to be good at mid but worse at max closer to M1 profile.
PTRS change to have lower reaction time.

Available upgrades:
"Research demolition charges" requires tech to unlock, gives access to demo for Penal and CE. CE can be re-balanced.

"AT upgrade" requires tech to unlock, gives access to PTRS AT satchel, AT satchel no longer causes critical only damage. At some a threshold was introduced so that vehicles would not run from infatry, there is little reason to have 1 shot engine engine damage available.

"AI upgrade" give 4 access to 4 SVT.

Personal preference, remove PTRS upgrade, introduce a separate AT dedicated AT squad like AT conscripts 2 PTRS AT grenades no ourah/merge, maybe "hit the ground" so it can still fire back vs AAHT. (The doctrinal option could improve this squad 3 PTRS camo and AT volley).

Conscripts:
Remove 7 men upgrade.

Available upgrades:
"Soviet conscription" available from t3 or T4 with a tech cost universals upgrade for all conscripts the XP/reinforcement bonuses only.


Personal preference, redesign Penal conscript as offensive/defensive infatry.

Maxim
Reduce the range of Vg's incendiary by 5.

Personal preference, replace incendiary with HE for VGs, move incendiary to ST.

T-70
Decrease power level.
Cheaper less lethal


M5 Qaud
Decrease power level.
Cheaper less lethal, reduce AA capability, possibly move suppression to separate upgrade or make it a timed ability.

SU-76
Replace vet 1 tracking with barrage, Fix XP value.

SU-85
Replace vet 1 focus sight ability now scale with veterancy, providing less sight at vet 1. Vet bonuses overhaul.

T-34/76
Tone down MG damage, "ram" replace by "full speed" a "skill" shot making the tank move straight fast. At vet 1 it can "ram" on collision ability scales with veterancy.

Doctrinal changes:
Remove Radio intercept, IL strafe/Bombing, Mark target, ATG camo from IS-2/IS-152 commanders.

If this units remain so dominant they rest of the abilities should be weaker.
(same changes suggested for other factions.)