Stationary PANTHER - Poll

I dont think theres any way to just "buff" stationary accuracy. You can make the moving acc multiplier worse, but then that means your nerfing the unit on the move. If you buff the main accuracy values, thats a buff to both stationary AND on-the move, which is what vet bonuses do if I have this correct

I am fine with buffing the main accuracy values with vet, should be at 2 or 3 imo

You would have to combine the 2.
0.5 standard accuracy with no moving penalties is the same on the move as 1.0 accuracy with 50% moving penalties.

Just a few comments above yours a person mentions about how Panther is the only TD without a accuracy buff at Vet3.

Is anyone going to mention how panther is only TD that has 960 health or 250+ armor, or AI DPS of gren squad?

You would have to combine the 2.
0.5 standard accuracy with no moving penalties is the same on the move as 1.0 accuracy with 50% moving penalties.

Right my point is that I dont think there's a problem with just buffing the standard accuracy values and keeping the moving multiplier the same, which is a net buff to both stationary and on-the-move

As opposed to OPs suggestion of just stationary, which requires what you're talking about

Is anyone going to mention how panther is only TD that has 960 health or 250+ armor, or AI DPS of gren squad?

Its also got 50 range? And costs 30+ more fuel than all the allied TDs?

I dont think theres any way to just "buff" stationary accuracy. You can make the moving acc multiplier worse, but then that means your nerfing the unit on the move. If you buff the main accuracy values, thats a buff to both stationary AND on-the move, which is what vet bonuses do if I have this correct

I am fine with buffing the main accuracy values with vet, should be at 2 or 3 imo

Not that I support the idea, but I think it would be possible to have a "stationary only" type buff. If we start by duplicate Spotting Scopes, but change it to give increased accuracy instead of sight, it would disable when moving, meaning that moving accuracy would stay the same. Then all that needs to be done is changing its name (to something like 'stationary sights'), and having it apply by default as a passive upgrade.

I'm not entirely sure if it's possible, since I've never used the mod tools, but it seems viable.


/edit

Alternatively, nerf the moving accuracy by half the accuracy buff. For example (using simplified numbers), a 50% moving accuracy multiplier on a 50% base accuracy gives 25% chance to hit. But a 75% base accuracy with a 33% moving accuracy multiplier would also give 25% chance to hit. It's kind of counter intuitive to have vet make a stat worse, though.

Not that I support the idea, but I think it would be possible to have a "stationary only" type buff. If we start by duplicate Spotting Scopes, but change it to give increased accuracy instead of sight, it would disable when moving, meaning that moving accuracy would stay the same. Then all that needs to be done is changing its name (to something like 'stationary sights'), and having it apply by default as a passive upgrade.

Good point! I didn't think about that way, i dont see why that couldnt be done

Its also got 50 range? And costs 30+ more fuel than all the allied TDs?

50% durability advantage (theoretically higher with armor) and actual AI capability versus 17% range disadvantage and a 27ish% price increase doesn't sound bad at all.

This is added on the fact that the panther is about as hard a counter to tanks as you can get outside of doctrine in any faction, with no medium tank on the allied side having a snowball's chance in hell of fighting it. Casemates are all easily flanked and even a jackson can be caught out of position and destroyed by Panzer IVs. A panther, on the other hand, can literally outfight any medium tank in the game with its ass facing it and win through HP and DPS alone, let alone using the front armor, and has actual AI power to boot when it isnt zoning out enemy tanks.

The fact literally every single balance discussion regarding the Panther is dedicated solely to buffing its ability to counter its only realistic nondoc counters on the allied side is really telling of just how much this unit does not need a buff.

You can argue its not good enough versus heavies and maybe that'd hold true, specifically versus the IS2, but nobody's been asking for penetration increases so big doubt there.

End point: if you want this unit to be a better Jackson it needs to lose either AI or durability or some of both.

50% durability advantage (theoretically higher with armor) and actual AI capability versus 17% range disadvantage and a 27ish% price increase doesn't sound bad at all.

This is added on the fact that the panther is about as hard a counter to tanks as you can get outside of doctrine in any faction, with no medium tank on the allied side having a snowball's chance in hell of fighting it. Casemates are all easily flanked and even a jackson can be caught out of position and destroyed by Panzer IVs. A panther, on the other hand, can literally outfight any medium tank in the game with its ass facing it and win through HP and DPS alone, let alone using the front armor, and has actual AI power to boot when it isnt zoning out enemy tanks.

The fact literally every single balance discussion regarding the Panther is dedicated solely to buffing its ability to counter its only realistic nondoc counters on the allied side is really telling of just how much this unit does not need a buff.

You can argue its not good enough versus heavies and maybe that'd hold true, specifically versus the IS2, but nobody's been asking for penetration increases so big doubt there.

End point: if you want this unit to be a better Jackson it needs to lose either AI or durability or some of both.

I don't really disagree with any of that except the last part. It does just well enough against heavies imo. Thing is im hardly asking for a huge buff. If the bonus is at vet 3 that will rarely even happen, it certainly doesn't magically turn it into a Jackson

It's just rewarding a player better for something that's already really difficult to achieve. Especially since all other TDs get a bonus

I'm not saying it's not worth the cost. I only brought that up because Katitof decuded to only list it's advantages

I will vote in increasing moving accuracy at vet2. Remove the armor vet if you pity allies.
Vet3 is too long
Vet2 armor bonus is useless now.

The AI of panther is pathetic, dps of grens is nothing to be proud of.

As i feel, dskha and 50cap dps are way better and they are not on panther

I will vote in increasing moving accuracy at vet2. Remove the armor vet if you pity allies.
Vet3 is too long
Vet2 armor bonus is useless now.

The AI of panther is pathetic, dps of grens is nothing to be proud of.

As i feel, dskha and 50cap dps are way better and they are not on panther

I don't remember any patch that added 50cal and dshka to the stock allied TDs. I must have missed that one, haven't played since before the weekend. Now I have something to look forward to abusing later in the week I guess.

"DPS of a gren squad", already a rough estimate by itself, is nothing to sneeze at and more than enough to kill infantry, especially considering those same infantry can't really do shit to the sheer armor and hp wall shooting at them. I mean, I hope you realize that most of the Panther AI doesn't even come from the pintle MG, but the coaxial and hull MGs, which do something like 10 DPS* even at at max range right off the bat.

That's by no means pathetic. It's only really beaten out by the T-34s (and now the KV1) with their buffed MGs.

*(combined, obviously. Quick edit here since I know some smartass will try to "aha!" me for that number)

I dont think theres any way to just "buff" stationary accuracy. You can make the moving acc multiplier worse, but then that means your nerfing the unit on the move. If you buff the main accuracy values, thats a buff to both stationary AND on-the move, which is what vet bonuses do if I have this correct

I am fine with buffing the main accuracy values with vet, should be at 2 or 3 imo

Is not that hard, you are just making things utterly complex for no reason. Current moving acc of Panthers is .5, then increase stationary vet0 acc by 15% and reduce moving acc 15% of 0.5, which is something like 0.4475 and done

I will vote in increasing moving accuracy at vet2. Remove the armor vet if you pity allies.
Vet3 is too long
Vet2 armor bonus is useless now.

The AI of panther is pathetic, dps of grens is nothing to be proud of.

As i feel, dskha and 50cap dps are way better and they are not on panther

Saying the armour is useless because of TDs is like saying target size is useless because of AOE attacks. The armour helps against every thing that isn't a TD including but not limited to: the damage from snares, at guns, hand at, any tank that isn't a TD, off maps and rocket arty

The panther is meant to counter tanks, TDs are meant to counter things like the panther. Believe it or not though, there are more than just TDs and panthers in this game....

Panthers doesn't counter tanks, TDs do, but at least Panthers are effective and trustworthy because of their durability and armor. It's like a churchill with good AT and mediocre AI

I don't remember any patch that added 50cal and dshka to the stock allied TDs. I must have missed that one, haven't played since before the weekend. Now I have something to look forward to abusing later in the week I guess.

"DPS of a gren squad", already a rough estimate by itself, is nothing to sneeze at and more than enough to kill infantry, especially considering those same infantry can't really do shit to the sheer armor and hp wall shooting at them. I mean, I hope you realize that most of the Panther AI doesn't even come from the pintle MG, but the coaxial and hull MGs, which do something like 10 DPS* even at at max range right off the bat.

That's by no means pathetic. It's only really beaten out by the T-34s (and now the KV1) with their buffed MGs.

*(combined, obviously. Quick edit here since I know some smartass will try to "aha!" me for that number)

50cal is on shermans though.
The pintle is just illustration how even with 3 mgs firing from panther, at most, it will force away an allies squad after they cap finished a point.

The real AI on tanks imo are the aoe main cannon and then the dskha/50cal. Pintles and rest are just poopoo, and not worth the cost, advantage cited. Imo those mgs on panther are more liability to hold it back.

I mean if we make the pintles slightly more powerful than 50cal with good moving accuracy, then yes i will crown panther AI ability. Now they are just bullet points on paper

Panthers doesn't counter tanks, TDs do, but at least Panthers are effective and trustworthy because of their durability and armor. It's like a churchill with good AT and mediocre AI

I will add panther are less durable than Churchill because of hard counters it get

Saying the armour is useless because of TDs is like saying target size is useless because of AOE attacks. The armour helps against every thing that isn't a TD including but not limited to: the damage from snares, at guns, hand at, any tank that isn't a TD, off maps and rocket arty

The panther is meant to counter tanks, TDs are meant to counter things like the panther. Believe it or not though, there are more than just TDs and panthers in this game....

Sadly 60TD and heavy callins dominate by far. No place for others, no place for old panthers.

Imo as i suggested. make allies 60td to 55td. 70td call in to 60td. Perhaps make su85 tracking 5muni cheaper. Also increase the fuel of call in. And we see from here.

As vipper thinks too, instead of power creep, we lower the field. And 60td are just too good. 60td has been identified, so we should fix them firstly

Panthers doesn't counter tanks, TDs do, but at least Panthers are effective and trustworthy because of their durability and armor. It's like a churchill with good AT and mediocre AI

I mean... it literally does. It will penetrate any medium tank in the game 100% of the time except for the comet, and will also out dps any medium tank in the game as well as deflect around 60% of medium tank shells (depending on range and type) while also being incredibly mobile and durable enough to dive or chase.

One can make the argument semantically that it is not a TD, but it definitely counters basically all nondoc tanks in the game.

50cal is on shermans though.
The pintle is just illustration how even with 3 mgs firing from panther, at most, it will force away an allies squad after they cap finished a point.

The real AI on tanks imo are the aoe main cannon and then the dskha/50cal. Pintles and rest are just poopoo, and not worth the cost, advantage cited. Imo those mgs on panther are more liability to hold it back.

I mean if we make the pintles slightly more powerful than 50cal with good moving accuracy, then yes i will crown panther AI ability. Now they are just bullet points on paper

And if you see a Sherman on the field with your Panther you can rest assured knowing it literally cannot fight your tank... What is that 70munition 50 cal upgrade (still not comparable to the combined DPS of upgraded Panther) going to do when it can't be anywhere near your Panther?

Tell that AOE gun schtick to the guys that play Soviets with the T-34s and KV-1s lmao.

Have you ever just considered that you are mistaken, and that the Panther is in fact not as useless as you think it is? I mean, you literally can't argue that it does not counter every stock vehicle other than allied TDs. That argument literally cannot be made. It is factually incorrect. Your absurd devotion to nerfing allied TDs directly in relation to the Panther, or buffing the Panther directly in relation to allied TDs, is based on wildly skewed presumptions on how the balance of this game works.

Sadly 60TD and heavy callins dominate by far. No place for others, no place for old panthers.

Imo as i suggested. make allies 60td to 55td. 70td call in to 60td. Perhaps make su85 tracking 5muni cheaper. Also increase the fuel of call in. And we see from here.

As vipper thinks too, instead of power creep, we lower the field. And 60td are just too good. 60td has been identified, so we should fix them firstly

How about we nerf the Panther's range to 45 while we're doing that.


How on earth is reducing TD range supposed to fix the heavy call-in meta? That's literally a direct buff to them by nerfing their only late-game counters. In that scenario, muh fuel increase, unless it's some insane number, is going to effect that dimension of gameplay exactly as much as the 5 fuel increase did for the M36 Jackson; not at all.

Is not that hard, you are just making things utterly complex for no reason. Current moving acc of Panthers is .5, then increase stationary vet0 acc by 15% and reduce moving acc 15% of 0.5, which is something like 0.4475 and done

You just read right over the other posts already addressing this? And you're not even focusing on the relevant detail, all im saying is i don't see why we need to just buff one or the other

All the acc vet bonuses for TDs are regular bonuses that apply to both on-the-move and stationary. I don't think a vet 3 bonus for such an expensive unit needs to be one or the other

Reducing 55td does not nerf them much against call in. Especially if we increase the call in fuel cost.

55td still have enough time to vet up, and still get their sweet vet bonuses


55td still outrange call in and non call in.

Su85 and ff have sight advantage too. Jackson of course mobility power. And making 5muni cheaper tracking will compensate the su85 non turret with slightly reduced range.

People make a fuss of pioneer extra 7 sight, yet mobile td have extra 10 range advantage, and at 640 hp, they are no longer squishy.

Panthers didn't kill medium plays, 60td did, imo

I believe the chance to pen a tiger with 60td is higher than a panther can pen a is2. Dropping to 55td won't make a losing impact

60td is simply unneeded and spoil the contest to laziness.

A pioneer needs to WALK to provide sight to mg42, a 60td simply drives about.

A 60td Jackson can 1v1 a costlier panther. The 10 range deficit is too much to take a chance since jackson can dive in an out of panther AND ATgun range. At 55td, at least allies td will have to reconsider the ATg more.

Sadly 60TD and heavy callins dominate by far. No place for others, no place for old panthers.

Imo as i suggested. make allies 60td to 55td. 70td call in to 60td. Perhaps make su85 tracking 5muni cheaper. Also increase the fuel of call in. And we see from here.

As vipper thinks too, instead of power creep, we lower the field. And 60td are just too good. 60td has been identified, so we should fix them firstly

I agree the 60 range TDs are over performing but a range decrease isn't the way imo. Idk if you have played this game but pathing is a very real issue and less range means a bad pathing experience could change the game.
Allied TDs just need reduced pen slightly and deflection damage. Then armour will mean something again.