"For Mother Russia" (sprinting while in combat)

Dude are u saying Sturm have good DPS at long range and on the move at the same time ?

Dude are u saying Sturm have good DPS at long range and on the move at the same time ?

They have decent mid range dps. Much more than sappers (which is justified by price of course)

U know that if it's justified by price then u can get 2 ? And the fact that the unit assault buff are even better for Brits as the longest excuse used for valiant assault Vs mother Russia was obers and lmg 34, Brits already have is with 2 bren and the doc comes with commando for all it DPS needs , close long etc

U are really grasping the straw if u are saying that one has better unit cause of marginal better DPS at mid range for Sturm that cost 50 % more over RE

U know that if it's justified by price then u can get 2 ? And the fact that the unit assault buff are even better for Brits as the longest excuse used for valiant assault Vs mother Russia was obers and lmg 34, Brits already have is with 2 bren and the doc comes with commando for all it DPS needs , close long etc

U are really grasping the straw if u are saying that one has better unit cause of marginal better DPS at mid range for Sturm that cost 50 % more over RE

What he is saying is that abilities like valiant assault provide the greatest benefit to units that have decent damage at mid and long range AND are capable of utilizing that damage while moving since they are abilities best used to push your opponent off the field or wipe retreating squads. Long and mid range dps WHILE ON THE MOVE is crucial because it allows squads to keep the enemy in optimal firing range for longer during a chase.

In his example he points out that while IS normally have good dps at long range, it is poor while on the move thus IS are a suboptimal unit to "assault" with.
Royal engineers are decent on the move, but are limited in their effectiveness by their rather poor long and mid range dps thus are suboptimal.
Commandos are good at firing on the move and once upgraded have good long range dps, although are expensive and require a side tech investment.

By contrast basically all the OKW infantry fit into a sort of optimal unit to assault with category. Sturpioneers have low dps dropoff at mid and long range compared to other SMG units(they out dps ostheer grens to a range of 22), volks with STGs are an all range generalist unit with decent(but not great dps) at all ranges, obers have that great long range dps plus they can fire their lmg on the move like commandos and FSJ really need no explaining.

The point is that while it is true brits have a unit(commandos) that synergizes well with assault, that's the only one. By contrast all of OKWs infantry synergize well with valiant assault.

Yes but u are all acting like only the moving DPS has any value, while it does not make sense as u don't get increased movement while in combat, so now VA and CA are supposed to be used to get to position fast and get the bonus accuracy , the excuse of moving DPS is really grasping at straw now

By this logic we should meet rifle men and penal vet accuracy as it synergis too well with their moving dps

Yes but u are all acting like only the moving DPS has any value, while it does not make sense as u don't get increased movement while in combat, so now VA and CA are supposed to be used to get to position fast and get the bonus accuracy , the excuse of moving DPS is really grasping at straw now

By this logic we should meet rifle men and penal vet accuracy as it synergis too well with their moving dps

Moving accuracy is important because of how the abilities are best used- to push enemy positions. Often enemy infantry is forced to retreat when they encounter troops under the benefits of the aforementioned abilities and you need good on the move damage to take advantage of it. No player worth their salt is going to let you plunk away at their troops from long range while you have these offensive buffs active (unless they can suppress your troops), they will just backpedal to wait out the duration of the ability thus forcing you to close distance hence the need for on the move damage output.


And yes, penals are the soviets best unit for FMR and can be absolutely disgusting when used in combination with it, but they are the only soviet unit that fits that "optimal" unit type and often penals are upgraded with PTRS, which erm... diminishes both their dps and ability to fire on the move.
Riflemen are irrelevant to this as there is no USF "valiant assault" ability.

Thanks serrith for explaining what I was trying to say better than I could. I was getting frustrated and it wasn't helping me say what I meant.

Thanks serrith for explaining what I was trying to say better than I could. I was getting frustrated and it wasn't helping me say what I meant.

NP.

quote form armadillo form the previous thread: "I'm not saying that it is bad, just that I can see why the guys shooting 5 bullets in 20 seconds have a higher modifier than the ones outing out 30 in the same time are.
Its important to not that when FMR is available Soviet lack any concentrated DPS while the FG42s are absolute beasts and the lmg34 is as great as ever. "

i guess opinions shift as the faction targeted changes

btw im not saying that moving dps does not matter, im saying the difference is low with is having better long range moving dps than volks and RE having better moving dps bonuses than other + commando, while still having better stationary dps

and no people will not give up victory points or fuel just for an ability they will try to hold with mg and other units, that can easily be sniped by a-moving the lmg blob with bonus accuracy

the argument of the unit targeted are better falls very short and show how biased people are, first " all that matters is long range dps and weapon upgrades not moving acc and close dps that's why mother Russia is fine with 50% bonuses" now " valiant assault is better than commando assault cause stg have OK close dps And can fire on the move, long range dps and weapon upgrades do not matter "

Thanks serrith for explaining what I was trying to say better than I could. I was getting frustrated and it wasn't helping me say what I meant.

As soon as your IS gets in range you just have to stay still and engage simple lol, you dont have to move around like a clown. if you want to close in just use commandos/or sappers. This has nothing to do with the ability or faction when your simply cherry picking a scenario where your choosing not to rely on IS strengths, which is at long range and staying still.

quote form armadillo form the previous thread: "I'm not saying that it is bad, just that I can see why the guys shooting 5 bullets in 20 seconds have a higher modifier than the ones outing out 30 in the same time are.
Its important to not that when FMR is available Soviet lack any concentrated DPS while the FG42s are absolute beasts and the lmg34 is as great as ever. "

i guess opinions shift as the faction targeted changes

btw im not saying that moving dps does not matter, im saying the difference is low with is having better long range moving dps than volks and RE having better moving dps bonuses than other + commando, while still having better stationary dps

and no people will not give up victory points or fuel just for an ability they will try to hold with mg and other units, that can easily be sniped by a-moving the lmg blob with bonus accuracy

the argument of the unit targeted are better falls very short and show how biased people are, first " all that matters is long range dps and weapon upgrades not moving acc and close dps that's why mother Russia is fine with 50% bonuses" now " valiant assault is better than commando assault cause stg have OK close dps And can fire on the move, long range dps and weapon upgrades do not matter "

Actually that's 2 branches of the same thing that I'm saying. Okw get more out of it because of their weapons that are good at all ranges and on the move. The guns that shoot 5 shots every 2 seconds generally are no either of those. It's literally the same argument that the ability on other factions needs to be provide better buffs to be on par with the impact that VA brings....

That would be a great point if like u said one had weapon that were good at all ranges and on the move , fact is they don't or they would be op with out VA too , stg have DPS similar to normal rifles at long and only at mid shine , at close they lose to normal SMG, mg 34 is almost the same as elite bren but 2 are better , Fg42 are siglty better bar but still lose to elite bar commando at all ranges

Normal bren while they can't fire on the move have superb far DPS

As soon as your IS gets in range you just have to stay still and engage simple lol, you dont have to move around like a clown. if you want to close in just use commandos/or sappers. This has nothing to do with the ability or faction when your simply cherry picking a scenario where your choosing not to rely on IS strengths, which is at long range and staying still.

This is not about whether IS are good at long range or not, nobody disputes that IS are quite good at long range. This is about whether or not they are infantry that synergize well with the assault ability, and the answer is they don't.

That would be a great point if like u said one had weapon that were good at all ranges and on the move , fact is they don't or they would be op with out VA too , stg have DPS similar to normal rifles at long and only at mid shine , at close they lose to normal SMG, mg 34 is almost the same as elite bren but 2 are better , Fg42 are siglty better bar but still lose to elite bar commando at all ranges

Normal bren while they can't fire on the move have superb far DPS

IS are vastly inferior on the move for two reasons. First they have severe on the move penalties compared to most other infantry-even other bolt action rifle infantry. Second, moving typically means you will not be in cover and certainly not green cover so infantry sections will end up taking a further DPS penalty due to being out of cover while moving. This is why they are very suboptimal units for an ability like assault.

Yes, they will punch well above their weight if the enemy lets you just sit in heavy cover with assault active, but I would hope you are at a matchmaking level where you see these kinds of opponents infrequently at most.


I'd also like to point out that in this case a unit beating another 1v1 is irrelevant. Just because volks lose to IS in a long range firefight does not mean IS are a more suitable unit for one of these abilities.

This is not about whether IS are good at long range or not, nobody disputes that IS are quite good at long range. This is about whether or not they are infantry that synergize well with the assault ability, and the answer is they don't.

Actually IS blob using "assault" are quite powerful and can attack HMG frontally.

The ability original had a different design.

... Second, moving typically means you will not be in cover and certainly not green cover so infantry sections will end up taking a further DPS penalty due to being out of cover while moving.

In late game there is very easy to move thru yellow cover create by explosions. That is not need for green cover to for the cover mechanism to kick in.

Finally these ability can be used to A move and if the blob has enough firepower it does not have to "move" in the process.

Regardless of if VA or FMR are better abilities or not assault is quite powerful.

This is part of the reason why I have suggested swapping DPS boost with received accuracy bonuses.

This is not about whether IS are good at long range or not, nobody disputes that IS are quite good at long range. This is about whether or not they are infantry that synergize well with the assault ability, and the answer is they don't.





IS are vastly inferior on the move for two reasons. First they have severe on the move penalties compared to most other infantry-even other bolt action rifle infantry. Second, moving typically means you will not be in cover and certainly not green cover so infantry sections will end up taking a further DPS penalty due to being out of cover while moving. This is why they are very suboptimal units for an ability like assault.

Yes, they will punch well above their weight if the enemy lets you just sit in heavy cover with assault active, but I would hope you are at a matchmaking level where you see these kinds of opponents infrequently at most.


I'd also like to point out that in this case a unit beating another 1v1 is irrelevant. Just because volks lose to IS in a long range firefight does not mean IS are a more suitable unit for one of these abilities.

again why ? u cant sprint and shoot , if this ability had only 25% better accuracy then this discussion would be the same, u are arguing that increase in accuracy are better IN GENRAL for okw in general because they have better troops, get that bias out please

now again IS have better dps ON THE MOVE at long range, cause they reduced the penalty on the move but they still retain better accuracy at long range even with stg volks (as they have worse dps at long range than normal kar 98), and the game has a lot of cover just passing near it give them the bonus as vipper explained, not heavy cover


what u are saying is that since volks and sturm have better dps at close range they are better but at the same time shock and cons are shit with FMR while having even better close dps

Actually IS blob using "assault" are quite powerful and can attack HMG frontally.

In late game there is very easy to move thru yellow cover create by explosions.

Finally these ability can be used to A move and if the blob has enough firepower it does not have to "move" in the process.

Any blob using an assault type ability can be powerful, and when they can stop and shoot IS are very strong with it.

The prevalence of yellow cover in 1v1 late game varies from match to match, while in the larger game modes you will often see plenty of rocket arty so I can buy that in 2/3/4v 2/3/4 there will be ways of pathing to the enemy which takes you over yellow cover.

Lastly, you are right that a blob does not have to shoot and move in order to take advantage from assault, it just very greatly benefits from it.

again why ? u cant sprint and shoot , if this ability had only 25% better accuracy then this discussion would be the same, u are arguing that increase in accuracy are better IN GENRAL for okw in general because they have better troops, get that bias out please

now again IS have better dps ON THE MOVE at long range, cause they reduced the penalty on the move but they still retain better accuracy at long range even with stg volks (as they have worse dps at long range than normal kar 98), and the game has a lot of cover just passing near it give them the bonus as vipper explained, not heavy cover


what u are saying is that since volks and sturm have better dps at close range they are better but at the same time shock and cons are shit with FMR while having even better close dps

You can't sprint and shoot, but you cant sprint while in combat with VA anyway so your first point is irrelevant. I also never said nor implied that OKW troops are just "better" overall, the whole point is that they are better in combination with a specific ability. For example, the advanced cover ability synergizes better with IS then it does with almost any other infantry in the game barring perhaps guards.



5 man RIFLE IS have a slight on the move dps advantage over STG volks only at ranges exceeding 31. At ALL other ranges they are worse off.

Finally I have no idea how you interpreted what I was saying meaning that "short range=better for assault" when I have clearly stated that the ability to keep an enemy in optimal engagement range while on the move is what makes the best units for these abilities-and this tends to favor units that have better dps over a wider range, which is typically units that excel at mid and long range on the move.



As a side note, you seem very quick to denounce anyone who disagrees with you as being biased-often based on straw man reasoning. Makes it seem like you are trying to cover your own issues.

i call people bias out when they contradict themselves, just look at the previous valiant assault thread, everyone was defending FMR cause soviet lack weapon upgrade and have bad long range dps, while having the best mid and close range dps, but ti was irrelevant cause mg 34 and superior a-moving power was all that matters, now that the table have turned and okw has a worse version of the commando ability, the short and mid range dps is super important ? and superior weapon upgrades and elite unit are useless ? well would u not call this double standard ?

just for ur knowledge im not asking for nerf, im saying that right now VA cost the same but without recon, so either give it a recon pass (which fits the theme) , make it so falls can reinforce during the ability or decrease the price

Any blob using an assault type ability can be powerful, and when they can stop and shoot IS are very strong with it.

The prevalence of yellow cover in 1v1 late game varies from match to match, while in the larger game modes you will often see plenty of rocket arty so I can buy that in 2/3/4v 2/3/4 there will be ways of pathing to the enemy which takes you over yellow cover.

Lastly, you are right that a blob does not have to shoot and move in order to take advantage from assault, it just very greatly benefits from it.

Then we agree, because you original post created to me the impression that in your opinion "assault" was weak ability.

This is the most useless ability in the game.
Late game has so much stuff that reks ur infantry like Brummbaer, Stuka, tanks etc. And u wanna nerf an ability that makes a complete weak commander still mediocre?
The ability is hard to use. Its not like u let ur infantry run around and wipe eveyrthing, u run into all kinds of fire and they get pinned.
The ability is at most very weak. Shoould get a buff not a nerf!

Then we agree, because you original post created to me the impression that in your opinion "assault" was weak ability.

Not at all, I think Assault, FMR and VA are all excellent abilities(perhaps too good), I just agree with armadillo that overall OKW units better synergize with their usage than their soviet and UKF counterparts.