The only thing imo jakson needs is a mobility nerf so that it cant straight up bully medium tanks. The firefly has more damage but still the p4 can run away and play around it. The high mobility was justified when jakson had 480hp.. but now that it has full 640 its mobility needs to be toned down.
As for the panther I think its as good as it can be..tinkering it more will make it either OP or UP. 960 hp is great(same as pershing) and has great penetration and great mobility. The panther vs is2 debate is rigged imo cos, 1 is2 is doctrinal and 2, panther starts with full 50 range vs is2's 40. The ONLY thing id favour in changing is moving accuracy of the panther cos it misses so much while moving and it needs better accuracy vs 60 range TDs.
reworking TD and giving them a role
11 Nov 2019, 11:55 AM
#61
Posts: 366
We choose our joys and sorrows long before we experience them
11 Nov 2019, 11:56 AM
#62
Posts: 366
Responding to op response, here is my opinion.
Jackson should have its pen bonus decrease to 10%-15%, jackson should iver have its accuracy further neft or reload increased or mobility.
Same as jackson, su85 should have its pen bonus decreased to 10%-15%, thats it.
I agree with the firefly.
Jagpanzer 4, I just find it hard to choose when its basically sandwich between the pazer 4 and panther, honestly would be 100% more beneficial if just arrive earlier (not needing the panzer authorisation).
For a fact, the panzer hq is the most prominent tech structure in the game to get destroyed. I cant remember if the set up time for the panzer hq was increased but maybe the pazer authorisation upgrade could be increased instead.
The stug by far is the toughest one. Perhaps replace vet one with a HE shell like the one tested on the m10s before? I dont see why it also couldnt have 640 health but I would be seriously careful with the stug with any buffs (vet one is a given to be changed or buffed).
Not to forget the forgetful su76, just make it a tad cheaper. Only other buff I can think of is increase its damage vet to make 160 instead of 140 and switch placed with the reload buff at vet 3 so you have to really earn it.
Just my thoughts.
Jackson should have its pen bonus decrease to 10%-15%, jackson should iver have its accuracy further neft or reload increased or mobility.
Same as jackson, su85 should have its pen bonus decreased to 10%-15%, thats it.
I agree with the firefly.
Jagpanzer 4, I just find it hard to choose when its basically sandwich between the pazer 4 and panther, honestly would be 100% more beneficial if just arrive earlier (not needing the panzer authorisation).
For a fact, the panzer hq is the most prominent tech structure in the game to get destroyed. I cant remember if the set up time for the panzer hq was increased but maybe the pazer authorisation upgrade could be increased instead.
The stug by far is the toughest one. Perhaps replace vet one with a HE shell like the one tested on the m10s before? I dont see why it also couldnt have 640 health but I would be seriously careful with the stug with any buffs (vet one is a given to be changed or buffed).
Not to forget the forgetful su76, just make it a tad cheaper. Only other buff I can think of is increase its damage vet to make 160 instead of 140 and switch placed with the reload buff at vet 3 so you have to really earn it.
Just my thoughts.
11 Nov 2019, 12:18 PM
#63
Posts: 5279
TD vs TD are actually quite common. For instance usually TDs are used against the Panther.
True but the panther is an odd duck. Most TDs are helpless against infantry but the panther has decent AI with all the mgs. It's a hybrid TD/medium tank/heavy tank. Not really a pure TD.
#stalinwept
11 Nov 2019, 12:23 PM
#64
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
TD vs TD are actually quite common. For instance usually TDs are used against the Panther.
I didn't say its uncommon to happen, I've said that's not how this is supposed to work.
And Panther is rather exceptional as there is no medium able to contest it, TDs are very much meant to
fight and counter panther.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Nov 2019, 12:33 PM
#65
Posts: 2243
its actually the best strategie to fight enemys TDS: get more TD than him or supriese him with your TDs and destroy them. since TDs have not that much armor ...and mostly not so fast (except jacksons) it works pretter good.
jackson counter ALL armor due to its high mobiltys, turret, high dps and penetration, selfrepair (faster available after a fight) from lv, mdeiums, TDs and till biggest tanks in the game.
jackson counter ALL armor due to its high mobiltys, turret, high dps and penetration, selfrepair (faster available after a fight) from lv, mdeiums, TDs and till biggest tanks in the game.
11 Nov 2019, 12:36 PM
#66
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
I didn't say its uncommon to happen, I've said that's not how this is supposed to work.
And Panther is rather exceptional as there is no medium able to contest it, TDs are very much meant to
fight and counter panther.
T34/85 says Привет
11 Nov 2019, 12:52 PM
#67
Posts: 857 | Subs: 2
True but the panther is an odd duck. Most TDs are helpless against infantry but the panther has decent AI with all the mgs. It's a hybrid TD/medium tank/heavy tank. Not really a pure TD.
Isnt that exactly the kind of problem the unit has? It doesnt have a clear role.
Its not good enough against infantry compared to a medium /heavy AND doenst have the abilities to (reload times, urrrggh)fight effectively against Jacksons / SU-85.
Yes, the panther has good mobility which can be used against SU-85 (but only on maps that allow flanking) but the Jackson has more range AND the same mobility AND costs 40 fuel less.
The bigger problem is that axis players need tanks to fight off allied infantry. The panther doesnt give you anything in this department but is very expensive. Building 1-2 mediums and back it up with a Tiger is a lot more attractive than spending my fuel on panthers. Thats why OKW players choose so often Grand offensive and thats the reason why wehr players have Tiger commanders in their load outs. And if wehr players really want to fight off efficiently against allied TDs they build the elephant.
So all in all i would like to see a clear role for the panther: Either it should be a pure TD or a good, highly mobile generalist - a better version of the comet.
11 Nov 2019, 12:56 PM
#68
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I didn't say its uncommon to happen, I've said that's not how this is supposed to work.
And Panther is rather exceptional as there is no medium able to contest it, TDs are very much meant to
fight and counter panther.
Pls decide what you want to say because you simply are contradicting yourself with each sentence:
"Tank destroyers are not meant to fight tank destroyers"
"however JP4 just so happens to be a hard counter to all allied TDs"
"I didn't say its uncommon to happen, I've said that's not how this is supposed to work."
"TDs are very much meant to fight and counter panther."
In a similar way they Allied TDs are "meant" to counter the Panther, JP is "meant" to counter allied TDs, there is nothing unique about it. Although for a counter JP is about them same price and pop as the units it counters.
It seems that some TDs are "meant" to fight other TDs.
11 Nov 2019, 12:58 PM
#69
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
So all in all i would like to see a clear role for the panther: Either it should be a pure TD or a good, highly mobile generalist - a better version of the comet.
Best adjustment to a Panther would be to buff its moving accuracy with vet. That way you’ll be able to use it as a mobile brawler.
11 Nov 2019, 13:16 PM
#70
Posts: 1351
The only thing imo jakson needs is a mobility nerf so that it cant straight up bully medium tanks. The firefly has more damage but still the p4 can run away and play around it. The high mobility was justified when jakson had 480hp.. but now that it has full 640 its mobility needs to be toned down.
As for the panther I think its as good as it can be..tinkering it more will make it either OP or UP. 960 hp is great(same as pershing) and has great penetration and great mobility. The panther vs is2 debate is rigged imo cos, 1 is2 is doctrinal and 2, panther starts with full 50 range vs is2's 40. The ONLY thing id favour in changing is moving accuracy of the panther cos it misses so much while moving and it needs better accuracy vs 60 range TDs.
Agreed with all the above. Logical
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11 Nov 2019, 13:17 PM
#71
Posts: 1351
Best adjustment to a Panther would be to buff its moving accuracy with vet. That way you’ll be able to use it as a mobile brawler.
Agreed. Another good way to justify its price and shorter range, which means it has to chase.
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11 Nov 2019, 13:22 PM
#72
Posts: 1351
Isnt that exactly the kind of problem the unit has? It doesnt have a clear role.
Its not good enough against infantry compared to a medium /heavy AND doenst have the abilities to (reload times, urrrggh)fight effectively against Jacksons / SU-85.
Yes, the panther has good mobility which can be used against SU-85 (but only on maps that allow flanking) but the Jackson has more range AND the same mobility AND costs 40 fuel less.
The bigger problem is that axis players need tanks to fight off allied infantry. The panther doesnt give you anything in this department but is very expensive. Building 1-2 mediums and back it up with a Tiger is a lot more attractive than spending my fuel on panthers. Thats why OKW players choose so often Grand offensive and thats the reason why wehr players have Tiger commanders in their load outs. And if wehr players really want to fight off efficiently against allied TDs they build the elephant.
So all in all i would like to see a clear role for the panther: Either it should be a pure TD or a good, highly mobile generalist - a better version of the comet.
No, the most problematic is cost/efficiency aspect. If it was cheaper and required lees tech, or if other tank destroyers were as expensive, then panther would make sense. Now it is overpriced. Its AI is also problematic as it works only very close range and then it could be satcheled etc. It's meant to be longer range unit.
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11 Nov 2019, 13:47 PM
#73
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Pls decide what you want to say because you simply are contradicting yourself with each sentence:
"Tank destroyers are not meant to fight tank destroyers"
"however JP4 just so happens to be a hard counter to all allied TDs"
"I didn't say its uncommon to happen, I've said that's not how this is supposed to work."
"TDs are very much meant to fight and counter panther."
In a similar way they Allied TDs are "meant" to counter the Panther, JP is "meant" to counter allied TDs, there is nothing unique about it. Although for a counter JP is about them same price and pop as the units it counters.
It seems that some TDs are "meant" to fight other TDs.
Nothing wrong with what I've said.
One day you'll understand that units in CoH2 can't all be generalized under a single word and there always are one or multiple nuanced exceptions that do follow the role, but don't follow the pattern.
I'm sure you'll get it one day.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Nov 2019, 13:51 PM
#74
Posts: 2243
Nothing wrong with what I've said.
One day you'll understand that units in CoH2 can't all be generalized under a single word and there always are one or multiple nuanced exceptions that do follow the role, but don't follow the pattern.
I'm sure you'll get it one day.
11 Nov 2019, 17:44 PM
#75
Posts: 2358
I find something very problematic about this whole topic that Axis tank are way too mobile for their durability, Panters are Fast/Tough/AT capable, PIVs are Fast/Tough/AI+AT until midgame or so. It gets even worse with blitzkrieg.
My point is, either make axis tank slower, then allied TD can get rightfully adjusted, and/or
Remove Blitz for Axis tanks, maybe swap it for wathever you want but nothing meaning an overall buff.
Caseless TDs should have high pen, back and forth kiting.
Turreted TDs should flank and maybe hit on the move.
Superheavy TDs should rely on abilities to excel.
My point is, either make axis tank slower, then allied TD can get rightfully adjusted, and/or
Remove Blitz for Axis tanks, maybe swap it for wathever you want but nothing meaning an overall buff.
Caseless TDs should have high pen, back and forth kiting.
Turreted TDs should flank and maybe hit on the move.
Superheavy TDs should rely on abilities to excel.
11 Nov 2019, 18:03 PM
#76
Posts: 5279
Isnt that exactly the kind of problem the unit has? It doesnt have a clear role.
Its not good enough against infantry compared to a medium /heavy AND doenst have the abilities to (reload times, urrrggh)fight effectively against Jacksons / SU-85.
Yes, the panther has good mobility which can be used against SU-85 (but only on maps that allow flanking) but the Jackson has more range AND the same mobility AND costs 40 fuel less.
The bigger problem is that axis players need tanks to fight off allied infantry. The panther doesnt give you anything in this department but is very expensive. Building 1-2 mediums and back it up with a Tiger is a lot more attractive than spending my fuel on panthers. Thats why OKW players choose so often Grand offensive and thats the reason why wehr players have Tiger commanders in their load outs. And if wehr players really want to fight off efficiently against allied TDs they build the elephant.
So all in all i would like to see a clear role for the panther: Either it should be a pure TD or a good, highly mobile generalist - a better version of the comet.
you are paying to force the enemy to invest in TDs instead of medium tanks while also being able to fight infantry (albeit not terribly well) because mediums cant face it efficiently. the issue is that TDs are SO good that players can stack their AI in their infantry with no worries of tank woes that mediums are not really needed to fight infantry and thus the panther isnt relly needed for medium tank supremacy
im aware of the over acheiving jackson and the problems it creates in balance
why should the panther be a better comet? it currently is the best tank to fight any non TD in the game, including the comet and all premium mediums as well as heavy armour, why should it have better AI as well? we used to have that and panther spam was just as cancer as TD spam is now.
#stalinwept
11 Nov 2019, 20:24 PM
#77
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedI think to fix JP4 make it cost 125F and put the health bonus at vet 4, basically make the first levels of vet less valuable and back load the good veterancy.
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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12 Nov 2019, 15:45 PM
#78
Posts: 556
I find something very problematic about this whole topic that Axis tank are way too mobile for their durability, Panters are Fast/Tough/AT capable, PIVs are Fast/Tough/AI+AT until midgame or so. It gets even worse with blitzkrieg.
My point is, either make axis tank slower, then allied TD can get rightfully adjusted, and/or
Remove Blitz for Axis tanks, maybe swap it for wathever you want but nothing meaning an overall buff.
That will further buff the TDs since Axis armor needs that speed to fight off the Allied TDs. This idea is the exact opposite of the "good" because in any form of RTS speed and range are the kings (C&C Generals Zero Hour Search & Destroy rocket Humwees for instance). I mean what is the the point of more armor and HP if i will never be able to shoot back ?
Grens are finally good.
12 Nov 2019, 17:04 PM
#79
Posts: 88
Stug in a bad position? I actually think they are very solid now. Cheap and effective and easy to get. I don't even need T4, I just get a p4 with 2 stugs and nothing can touch me lol. Especially if I get spotting scopes.
12 Nov 2019, 21:05 PM
#80
Posts: 1351
Stug in a bad position? I actually think they are very solid now. Cheap and effective and easy to get. I don't even need T4, I just get a p4 with 2 stugs and nothing can touch me lol. Especially if I get spotting scopes.
It 8s better to have one Jackson and some bazookas on echelon than two drugs. Sherman is better at killing inf than ost p4. Add repairs from crews and You have the picture. It is very difficult to repair 3 tanks as ost.
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