6 changes to improve Wehrmacht commanders thematically

This is turning into a REALLY good thread, guys!

The CP4 requires 7 CP in addition to tech.

For Stug E, this is 5 CP.

These are oddities in the tech revamp patch that should be removed imo.

Was unclear sorry. Yes currently it has CP requirements, I try to saying there is no need for them. Since it needs a building it could easily follow the Panzer J and become build able and not call in with no CP requirements.

1. This would make the problem worse than it was before, the synergy with the flame halftrack would be much too strong. It would be better to make the Puma like the Valentine. A limited 5 CP call-in, if possible with buildtime.

2. Feel the doctrine would lose too much strength without Panzer Tactician. This doctrine is all about skillfully maneuvering flimsy light vehicles to force an early win, that just doesn't work without smoke.

I look at this from the reversed perspective. Replacing Panzer Tactician would make the flamer halftrack much more vulnerable to ATGs and handheld AT weapons. That should be enough to make it okay for the Puma to come in after.

I've personally never felt the Puma was the big problem of the doctrine, as it took a huge amount of skill to make the light vehicle onslaught work, but rather the techless AI tank that came right after it to punch the opponent while they were down. It should also help that the Puma is now buildable rather than a call-in.

Only thing I'd change is removing Sector Artillery and just giving the Forward Supply Station all off-maps. This way the Mortar Halftrack could be readded

Sector Artillery is a good ability since the rework, especially for teamgames as it's a great way to force the enemy to halt their attack anywhere on the map. I think by keeping Sector Artillery the commander would have a better chance to be used across all modes.

4. Why not keep the Spotting Scopes instead of Combined Arms? Scopes would only be left in 1 teamgame-focused commander otherwise

I feel that Combined Arms is one of those rare well designed abilities, as it requires certain preparations and tactics rather than just clicking a button, and I think more of these types of abilities should be added if possible. And it'd fit the mechanized theme way better than Spotting Scopes.

I've personally never felt the Puma was the big problem of the doctrine, as it took a huge amount of skill to make the light vehicle onslaught work, but rather the techless AI tank that came right after it to punch the opponent while they were down. It should also help that the Puma is now buildable rather than a call-in.

+1

I look at this from the reversed perspective. Replacing Panzer Tactician would make the flamer halftrack much more vulnerable to ATGs and handheld AT weapons. That should be enough to make it okay for the Puma to come in after.

I've personally never felt the Puma was the big problem of the doctrine, as it took a huge amount of skill to make the light vehicle onslaught work, but rather the techless AI tank that came right after it. It should also help that the Puma is now buildable rather than a call-in.

A good balance would be to give Puma non-doc smoke and add the smoke bombs, like you suggested, but make the Puma a 5 CP call-in.

Consider the Puma is the one thing that removes Ostheer's biggest weakness. If it could be build from T2 without CP requirements, you'd be able to get a FHT + Puma follow up much earlier than OKW can get the Luchs + Puma combo. Afterwards, you can still get either an Ostwind or Panzer 4 in a reasonable timeframe, because of your cheaper tech. Or to put it in numbers:

- (-20 + 10 + 40 + 20 + 30 + 75 + 90 + 15 + 120) = 380 fuel to get FHT + Puma + P4

Compared to:

- (-5 + 10 + 45 + 65 + 75 + 10 + 60 + 60 + 140) = 460 fuel to get Luchs + Puma + P4 J

It would be far too powerful.

Sector Artillery is a good ability since the rework, especially for teamgames as it's a great way to force the enemy to halt their attack anywhere on the map. I think by keeping Sector Artillery the commander would have a better chance to be used across all modes.

Why wouldn't it be possible to add it to the building without an activation range (click where you want)?

I feel that Combined Arms is one of those rare well designed abilities, as it requires certain preparations and tactics rather than just clicking a button, and I think more of these types of abilities should be added if possible. And it'd fit the mechanized theme way better than Spotting Scopes.

It's well-designed for USF (aside from being in the same doctrine as Pershing), but I don't think it's a safe addition to Ostheer at all.

Suddenly a 90 fuel Stug significantly out dps's your 145 fuel Jackson and can fire at almost equal range. Good luck fighting a group of that. I'd stack all 3 Stug reload bulletins for even more fun.

Btw do you mind telling me what fonts you are using?

I tried looking up the ones Relic were using but I couldn't find them, yours also are not 1:1 but are closer than mine to the originals lol.

Ability name: Times New Roman, white color, size 15.
Description: Times New Roman, get right grey color with color picker, size 14

Maybe Relic uses bold text for ability name, haven't bothered to try it out yet.

Encirclement Doctrine


Remove the sprint ambush shoot be static not chasing unit

CP 2 Ambush training
Reduce upgrade cost
Now available to pioneer and packs
Now reduces Target to 0.95

CP 2 Stormtroopers
MP-40 removed now can be built from HQ with 5 entities or spawn from ambient with 4+1 entities

Start with interrogation ability, sight to 45. If upgraded with Shreck apply "hammer tracking"

Break supply Line

Breakthrough
Also increase sight by 5-10 for duration

Close the pocket
Ability redesigned, CP-9, cost to 120-140 targets all front line sectors with mortars. Number of shell depends on how many friendly are adjacent to enemy sector. Friendly unit that enter sector out of supply get defensive bonus.

Encirclement is fine, no change needed.

Encirclement is fine, no change needed.

close the pocket is an extreme ability ranging from op to waste of mu. The game has moved away from this model and this ability needs to readjusted accordingly.

close the pocket is an extreme ability ranging from op to waste of mu. The game has moved away from this model and this ability needs to readjusted accordingly.

No it doesn’t, it’s a high skill, high difficulty ability that also gives a high reward. The game is better with it and no change is needed.

close the pocket is an extreme ability ranging from op to waste of mu. The game has moved away from this model and this ability needs to readjusted accordingly.

Close pocket is no problem at all

The commander's concept itself is the problem

If Encirclement had been the commander of the other faction, it would have been much easier to use

No it doesn’t, it’s a high skill, high difficulty ability that also gives a high reward. The game is better with it and no change is needed.

You are entitled to your opinion. The fact remains that game changing abilities have been toned in this game while close the pocket has not been touched.

It's well-designed for USF (aside from being in the same doctrine as Pershing), but I don't think it's a safe addition to Ostheer at all.

Suddenly a 90 fuel Stug significantly out dps's your 145 fuel Jackson and can fire at almost equal range. Good luck fighting a group of that. I'd stack all 3 Stug reload bulletins for even more fun.

Besides the fact that I don't think there is much of a difference in overefficiency between whatever unit the bonus applies to (because 65 range, fast reloading and almost selfspotting Jacksons are equally terrifying), we can make the bonuses be whatever we want. The point was just to add a Combined Arms ability that works the same way as the USF one, activating when infantry and vehicles are in close proximity of each other. The actual bonuses that it gives can be finetuned for the specific faction.

Alright so here's my Mobile Defense doctrine improvement concept:



It does 2 things.

- Makes Mobile Defense Great Again (Trump approved)

- Introduces the King Tiger to Ostheer.

I have mixed in Smartie's concepts and ideas with the 250 and AT Osttruppen (I'm a very big fan of the AT Rifle Osttruppen idea myself) into a single combat group similar to the Grenadier/Panzergrenadier 250 call in for other doctrines.

But overall haven't touched anything else but the now pretty obsolete Command Panzer IV.

To the probable questions of "Isn't it redundant?" and "Isn't it going to be OP?" to both of which I answer with a strong "No".

Simply because it's a heavily AT focused mid to late game commander that doesn't have AI or give you much of an early game advantage, not to mention no off map support like an artillery barrage or air strike.

Plus all 3 call-ins are both "mobile" and "defensive" (of sorts, maybe besides the Puma) in nature. I don't really count the KT as an aggressive unit since it's big, slow and dead if you don't support it well while you could rush with the Puma because it's cheap, fast and you could say expendable.

Special shout-outs again to Smartie for his ideas I've used here, and DerbyHat for his suggestions on the fonts.

Also Pardon the picture being a little bit blurred, I had to take it off the internet and then scale it up because I was too lazy to go into the game and take a screenshot of the commander itself lol.

@A.Soldier:

I think your KT would fir nicely to Sanders Festung Armor commander:

1. KT

2. Panzer Tactican

3. Hull Down

4. Tank Commander

5. Defensive Panzer Tactics

Sounds like a really cool commander imo. KT would have excellent synergy with hull down, Tank commander and Panzer Tactician.

@A.Soldier:

I think your KT would fir nicely to Sanders Festung Armor commander:

1. KT

2. Panzer Tactican

3. Hull Down

4. Tank Commander

5. Defensive Panzer Tactics

Sounds like a really cool commander imo. KT would have excellent synergy with hull down, Tank commander and Panzer Tactician.

I couldn't find his concept for it but I'm guessing it's gonna look like something like this:



I also couldn't find out what the idea behind Defensive Panzer Tactics was so I just used the emergency repairs ability from the OKW Elite Armor doctrine.

And to be honest, it's whatever to me which Ost doctrine gets the KT, as long as one of them does lol. Mobile Defense just had the OKW theme already going for it, that's why I think it fit in there, that's all.

Three problems with the KT in Festung Armor:

1. There's no animation for hulled down KT.

2. If there would be an animation for hulled down KT, nothing would be able to counter it (basically equal range to Allied TD's and AT guns, while having 375 armor, a cannon with 240 damage and 1700~ HP)

3. If wouldn't be able to get hulled down, the KT has bad synergy in the doctrine.

I think Fortified Armor would be a better candidate for KT (don't ask me why you want it..), cause I find Sander's concept for Festung Armor pretty neat atm. Just replace hull down and Elefant.

Replace KT with Elephant, panzer tactician with breakthrough equipment and emergency repairs with entrenching tools from community defense and the commander is ready.

Three problems with the KT in Festung Armor:

1. There's no animation for hulled down KT.

2. If there would be an animation for hulled down KT, nothing would be able to counter it (basically equal range to Allied TD's and AT guns, while having 375 armor, a cannon with 240 damage and 1700~ HP)

3. If wouldn't be able to get hulled down, the KT has bad synergy in the doctrine.

I think Fortified Armor would be a better candidate for KT (don't ask me why you want it..), cause I find Sander's concept for Festung Armor pretty neat atm. Just replace hull down and Elefant.

It does have hull down animations tho lol, all German (OKW included) tanks do, as you can see here with the Jagdtiger being an example:



You can also check it in the All Units Mod.

Also Hull Down could be just reworked in my opinion as well and there's already 2 doctrines with the Elefant.

Replace KT with Elephant, panzer tactician with breakthrough equipment and emergency repairs with entrenching tools from community defense and the commander is ready.

There is already a doctrine with an Elefant and Hulldown so there's no need for a 2nd one in my opinion, it's useless it is and is being overshadowed by Jaeger Armor (Elefant and Spotting Scopes plus the Frag run).

Other than that like I said it's whatever to me, as long as the KT is included somewhere.

I'm happy with Wehrmacht getting a King Tiger in whatever doctrine, so long as they get it.