Profile of Aerohank

Remember that once Ostheer has t3 rolling, the power now switches to them and there is a grace period where they will have mechanized dominance and Soviets will be teching to get out appropriate counters (SU85/T34 etc).

The problem is that this is not the case at all. The panzer4 is already countered before it hits the field and has no shock value. Even in the best case scenario, where you are able to hold 50% of the map against the 7:00 Quad HT until you P4 arrives, the Soviet can make 2 SU76s to easily have a mobile counter to the P4. Read back some of my posts to see why, I can't be bothered to write another 1000 word essay.

With the HMG changes there really is no need for demo charges now, but I would like to keep them in the game to blow up buildings and bridges, so I propose all factions get the paratroopers timed democharge. It's useful for blowing stuff up, but won't delete capping squads by clicking a button.

Whats with all the fuss?

UsF AA HT always came early and has essentially the same effect as the m5. (if we ignore reinforcement)

Counter the m5 the same way you have countered the m15 for a year.

There are very significant differences between the M15 and the Quad M5. If there weren't any, this topic wouldn't have existed because like you said, you could have countered it the same way we have been doing for the past year.

One of the differences is that the M5 quad can deal with 222s and supress infantry excellently while one the move. It can also reinforce which is a huge advantage that you can't just ignore.

But more importantly than all this, is the fact that the Americans are a completely different faction than the Soviets. Let me explain. First, lets look at the Americans. You can turtle defend just fine against the M15 with PAK40s. The reason why this is pretty balanced and has not been a major problem for the last year is not about the M15, but about the possible follow-ups. The Americans can not follow up with both good AT and good indirect fire options. If they followed up with Shermans, the Pak40s could hold the line, if they followed up with a Scott to deal with the Pak40s, they were left vulnerable to P4s because they had no AT. The winner is decided by good risk-assessment and tactics.

Now look at the Soviets, what do they have as a follow up? Good indirect fire and plenty of AT. They don't have the weakness of the Americans that can be exploited. They can follow up with an AT gun and SU76s to remove and shock value of the P4 while at the same time providing the soviets with the required indirect fire to deal with the Pak40 wall.

In 2v2s with 2x sovs vs 2x Ost, the soviets can both get out a M5 quads at the 7 minute mark, dominate the map, and follow up with a either mix of T3 and T4 units (one goes SU76 spam, the other goes T4 for katy and SU85), or just SU76s, supported with 1 or 2 AT guns and from there on out it's a very quick loss for the Ostheer. Once they have their double P4s out (both have to go T3 as T4 is so expensive it is out of the question) there is enough Soviet AT out on the field to remove the shock value these units would have had when playing against the Americans.

That if the difference between the Quad M5 and the M15.

Total fuel costs for teching only tell a part of the story. What is more important is the relationship between teching cost and the shock value of the units produced by the tech.

For example, if faction A could tech to tanks for X fuel cost, and faction B could tech to tanks for 2X fuel, then the tanks of faction B do not take twice as long to tech too as those of faction A; they take longer. This is because the tanks of faction A had shock value that give faction A more map control, thus reducing faction Bs fuel income, and thus delaying his tanks.

This is part of the problem with the new teching system. The window for Soviet T3 units against Ostheer is rather large. But when Soviets go for the M5 quad, the window is HUGE. By the time this window has closed, the Soviets will have massed so much fuel that the first Ostheer tank has completely lost his shock value.

I agree. Double Ost vs Double Sovs feels very one-sided in the new patch.

The game starts out rather evenly, with both sides having a solid selection of infantry, support weapons and light vehicles. Then at the ~7:00 mark the Soviets get the M5 quad which provides enormous shock-value in that it reinforces, has long range suppression and high damage against infantry, and has enough penetration to chew up 222s. Even after getting hit by a PAK40 round the M5 can still easily kill a 222. The M5 quad is like the 2013 flamer halftrack all over again: Too much fire power too soon in combination with on-field reinforcement; the only difference is that the M5 does not need to get into AT-nade range in order to do its damage.

SU76s are a cheap follow up that do great work against both the PAK40s and Ostheer T3 units, and the fact that the M5 is only 30 fuel means that you will be able to afford one of these light tanks by the time a panzer 4 rolls out. On some maps, the map-control provided by the M5 can snowball so hard that a second SU76 is already on the field by the time the Ostheer player rolls out their P4. The situation becomes even more dire if the ostheer player wants to try to go for T4, in which case his first panther will meet a wall of AT guns, SU76s and SU85s that all outrange the panther and will completely nullify the panther.


My suggestion is:
- Require T4 to be build to unlock the M5 quad upgrade.

Reason: This will still make the M5 an early viable option to do reinforcement pushes (like the Ost HT) but will force the soviet to invest in the more expensive, non-reinforcing, non-suppressing T70 if he wants to have early anti-infantry firepower. This is important as the T70 comes later, thus giving the Ostheer more breathing room and a few more minutes of fuel income before getting pushed off the map. Currently the M5 quad is just a way better option as it does everything the T70 does and more, but comes earlier and at a fraction of the fuel cost.

The late-game quad upgrade will still ensure that the M5 will be useful after the initial push if you do decide to go M5 over T70. Unlike the FHT upgrade, the M5 quad still provides excellent late-game fire support due to it's long range and suppression.

Hopefully this change alone could make the matchup more fair, but I fear further adjustments need to be made.