Shock's grenades performance is an oversight and not a trade mark.
In the original design the grenade was weaker with December patch it received a huge buff but without actually normalizing it and bringing it inline with other grenades:
"HE Grenade far AOE increased from 0.15 to 0.5"
(The same can be said about valentine main gun and SU-76 vet damage bonus in the barrage)
But you see, i think it was normalised towards other grenades, without giving it a 120 (original) / 100 damage profile of other anti infantry specialised units.
The same post you quote the change from, explicitly tells you that.
We are also improving the performance of the Shock Troops’ grenade to be on par with other anti-infantry specialists.
And to give some context, 6 months before that this was done to Guards with are more generalist (and Partisans as well).
RGD-33 Fragmentation Grenade (Affects Partisans, but not Shocks)
AOE far damage reduced from 0.5 to 0.25 (Same as MK2)
Ready aim time increased from 0.125 to 0.625 (to match MK2 overall delay)
Munitions cost reduced from 45 to 35
Didn't read this thread but the M3A1 should definitely NOT get med crates because that effectively saves Soviets 250 MP(equal a unit) in early game and would very likely completely brake the balance against OKW because all of a sudden you don't only have have the M3A1 but aren't outnumbered anymore either.
It either means another Penal/Con on the field or faster Zis and both would not be a good idea.
If it's AoE healing then yeah it would be dirt cheap. But if it's without AoE and behind vet, suddenly it's not something you can rely 100% on, during the early game.
The M3A1 is very powerful early game, but so is the T70. Looking at the T70, we can see it gets a powerful support ability that you can use after its optimal timing if you can keep it alive.
However, giving the M3A1 a powerful support ability would give your opponent almost no time to breathe and recover, and Sov isn’t really suffering in viability right now.
I think there should be some reward for keeping it alive, and Sov does lack on the field healing. However, I feel like giving it healing right after its optimal timing would be too oppressive, as the time after that is where your opponent can recover from its power and take advantage of your damaged squads and lack of AT.
I would give it a med crate ability once T3 is purchased. This would be a reward for keeping it alive, but hopefully prevent it from allowing Sov to apply relentless pressure on to its opponents.
That's a good point.
Maybe it's time to see if we can change the status quo of Soviets early mid game. Transfer the power budget of the T70 (scaled down) towards other parts of the soviet army.
If the T70 is as scary as a P2, you could then just make T3 cheaper (giving room to M5/Su76) or makes medics cheaper mp wise at the expense of say fuel, making the transition during the mid game less awkward.
Give it shared xp gain and replace the overdrive ability at vet 1 with a single medkit drop.
Alternative for not removing overdrive. Move it to vet 3 and replace the bonuses there. Make overdrive a copycat from USF Step on it, while still costing 10 muni (Yeah, Step on it shits on all other simil abilities).
Well instead of talking about 1v1 winrates as a whole in a "shock grenade thread", answer me this question. Why do shocks cost 360mp and obers cost 340 mp and have to buy their LMGs to stand any remote chance against shocks against someone who isn't sitting AFK at range 35.
Why does the shock grenade get to cost less than the other grenades, yet gets to have a max range blast of 40 damage which is 50% of any infantry model aside from snipers, while other grenades have far less. I'm not saying we need massive changes here, just lower the max range damage to something similar to the cooked frag or find a middle ground. And also for another thread probably address shocks in some way.
Consistency, balance between factions. Saying soviets need OP unit because axis have OP unit is an awful arguement. You don't keep OP units, you nerf them and try to balance them with every other unit so factions don't crutch on them every game.
1- Obers Kar actually do dmg and have passive suppression 6 years since release. Anything above 15 range, Ober as a squad outdps Shocks WITHOUT the LMG upgrade.
2- LMG/AR/Carbines are easier to use as they keep performing defensively or offensively with A move or chasing down squads. Once you retreat pass 10-15 range, the chance to wipe a squad or do dmg with an SMG drops drastically.
The fact that you have to get into CQC put's you in a more dangerous situation.
3- The veterancy on Shocks is oriented towards the grenade. It's like the grenade is part of the character of the unit.
This is also why Obers cost more. They have more utility, diversity and better vet.
4- 1.5 Armor is equivalent to 0.66 Received accuracy. Obers start at 0.7. Any weapon with penetration higher than 1.0 negates this advantage.
This applies to LMG, HMG and mounted MG mostly (obviously other vehicles weapons and flak accuracy base units)
5- I'll rather have Shocks get the current costed and dmg grenade rather than Bundle/Gammon nuke nade dmg model with longer fuse.
I've already told you. Lethality AREA of nuke nade = 3x times the size of normal nade (including shock nade).
While Shocks nade retain 40dmg till 4 (i think MMX made a thread about how dmg doesn't drop off to 0 pass far dmg till max radius AoE) the drop off dmg from nuke nades is almost similar with a higher mid dmg and far dmg dropping till 3.75 at 30 and from there till 5 range radius.
If you want to nerf the grenade, then rework them to be design around something else than just the grenade and getting close.
This will probably always be the opinion rather than fact. Still my level game experience and my tourney and cast observations make me believe that Soviets are much more forgiving and generally easier to play with (more models in a squad/team weapon, cheap spammable mines, lots of call in stuff and plethora of commanders). This usually will (but doesn't have to) transfer into better faction performance than axis. Current balance level is quite good and the difference isn't that great but is significant imo.
More like Soviets are slightly better than OKW and slightly better than regular Ostheer. Only time they are inferior is when Ostheer skips T1 with doctrinal infantry into fast Pgrens/Flame HT. To some degree also 5 man Grens but that is something every faction struggles against at the moment. OKW has no "meta" that is superior to Soviets.
Yep should had specify that OKW is practically equal and OH is the one which is superior with meta builds.
I think OKW vs SU match up just revolves around how much dmg is done with light vehicles before T70 arrives and how OKW manages it.
It's hard to differentiate "OH" regular play, when you have 3 to 4 different ways to play them with Osstruppen, Assault G, 5 man Gren and the more risky Pio/MG42 T1 skip.
I don't think mg42 is as great as it is painted, definitely not in 1v1. Setup times and arc traverse make it really easy to deal with not mentioning smoke or simple flanking or any indirect fire. Tier 0 and pio plus mg42 compo are more difficult to use in 1v1 than typical early infantry spam to cap fast.
Soviets are stronger than axis in 1v1 and that is why I really think their munitions economy should be looked at. I'd make ZiS barrage, shock grenade, maybe shock armour, triflarewire, guards ptrs, simply more expensive or just paid upgrades to make them spam fewer offmaps such as incendiary barrage. Not a big change but pretty logical balance path.
Soviet are on par with Axis on 1v1 and inferior meta wise.
It's an Elite grenade been done differently. As opposed to nuke nades, it's fuse is shorter but it's lethality is lower.
At 1.88 radius vs 1.0, we are talking about around 3.5 times bigger lethal AoE.
I'll say the weird behaviour with the Shock nade is the high far AoE dmg which is a key component against garrison.
Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but we have not figured out yet how to fix the bug introduced with Shocks nade, therefore they can't use both smoke and HE at the same time.
If this get's fixed i don't mind returning the AoE far dmg tune back down to the same as nuke nades at 30.
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